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The theoretical "Learning character"
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:08 am    Post subject: The theoretical "Learning character" Reply with quote

We have a lot of races that aren't elves, humans or half-elves. Shocking I know.

Mos of these races are restricted, which has strong reasoning behind it (though elves should be in that mix)

But I noticed a wee problem. There is no actual practical way in place for people to prove themselves adept enough at RP to get a restricted race. Right now people have to grab a Vanilla race, devote the full amount of time and energy to get that race to hm. Then dump their character they got to hm for a level restricted one.

Call me crazy but I think that is horrible.

I think a new public BBoard should be made called "race request" where people post their desire for a race, with a description of the character they will make and how they intend to rp that character. And hms and such will give their opinions and then an avatar or imm can just look over it see if it looks right and toggle their account to let them take that race.

And I think HMs should be required to go through this same process.

Of course this may require the permissions of accessing a race be tied to the accounts with each race having its own individual switch. So an imm can like

"Race [race name] allow [account name] or something."
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Nienne
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Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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Location: Aussieland

PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Main problem herein is the maintenance - you may have noticed we're pretty short on imms already Smile Giving them more paperwork to do tends to just burn them out quicker. So we follow the premise of your post by way of an automated system - ie. if by earning HM status on any character, you've proven both your RP aptitude and your OOC trustworthiness, then you can access these races.

I know it may not be an ideal situation, given joe playing an elf may be absolutely awful at playing a minotaur/yuan-ti/whatever, but in the name of a) speed/reliability of response, and b) sanity of imms, it's the best middle-ground we've got. We did have a manual request system in prior to accounts, which ended up being a lot of work and/or people getting upset when they had to wait a long time for a response (when imms weren't regularly around) or weren't approved for whatever reason. So at this point, until such time as our regular imming staff increase, it's probably going to need to stay thusly; at present it's been just me and Kossuth, and he's taking a much deserved breather after his major plot arcs.

Perhaps down the track it may be more of a reality Smile
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyway you could simply install a type of automated voting system? Like If 5 hms give support for a request and none deny it the process automatically goes through?
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Nienne
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like most things, it's possible - given enough time nearly anything can be coded (though obviously feasibility is a question for many). That said, I'm the only one coding right now so it'd be abandoning the current projects in favor of something that's rarely used as-is; most newbies are happy with core races. I can do that, but I'd prefer not to right now.

That said, it could go on the later list.

My concern therein is that most of the restricted races are restricted because they're challenging. Add that to the learning curve of the mud in the first place, and most newbies would be in over their heads; they're not going to know how to deal with languages, and appropriate player interactions, and PK, and lack of city facilities, etc. So my preference would still be to reserve these races for experienced players - as much for minimising paperwork, as for their more obscure RP nuances, as for their rarity, as for also keeping a few perks tied to HM. I think there's enough reasons (at least in my head) not to loosen this up more than the current system allows. I get what you're trying for... I think I might just be on a different page Smile
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HM is just such a high bar. How about lower at least the non-level adjusted races to advanced player at least. Enough for them to get familiar but not so high it requires abandoning a committed character?
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Zathery



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a brief comment between International matches.

A player voting system would not work. Since to get a request race approved you need to submit not only a general character idea and background, but also RP motivations and prove that you've thought this character out. And in that lot are things the playerbase aren't privy to, like hidden motivations, or that the background you intend to post is a blatant lie. Now while HM's shouldn't use that info ICly, and most wont, we're all human and some might have problems disconnecting between known OOC info and what your character should know. And also it would remove a lot if not all impact of the revelation when things come to light.

And no, people do not need to devot a ton of time getting HM on a possibly unwanted, 'vanilla' character. If they are truely new A) They don't need the added learning curve of playing an exotic race or variation on a 'vanilla' race, B) we don't know if they can handle it.

If Joe the newbie really wants to play an Aasimar he needs to first actually learn the game, how to roleplay, create their own character with the tools of the game and prove he can handle the added responsability of an Aasimar. But also that he can be trusted as a player. Yes a lot of these are criteria for HM as should be, but you don't need to devote a full year getting one PC to HM and then abandoning it for your 'real character' because thats a quick way to loosing your HM. If Joe is a standard newbie, asking questions, screwing up and taking advice/constructive critisism with respect and showing he is a mature, well meaning player for the game, he wouldn't have to spend too much time on his newbie characters learning the game before proving he can handle his Aasimar dreams.
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then Zathery that again puts the responsibility on Imms. They need an automated way. So I suggested we have the completion of the sword quest trigger the restricted races. Maybe make it so they get one restricted race slot in their account when they complete the sword quest.
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Nienne
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to have to stay with my prior stance I'm afraid - as per much of Zathery's last paragraph, I'd rather see a depth of understanding of the game that comes with more than just L20. Considering you can hide behind a PK flag and keep your interactions non-existent and still get to that point, there's a lot of aspects of the mud a new player may easily not encounter by reaching the point of advanced player. So I still feel far more comfortable keeping the restricted races - many of which are at least xenophobic, if not directly KOS and voided of PK protection - to those who actually have a proven understanding of the aspects of the mud that make those races so difficult and/or obscure.

There's also some LA code issues still behind the scenes that are proving pretty difficult to weed out, so again, HMs would be prepared to deal with that as necessary.

I don't feel like we have a poor selection of unrestricted races anyway - more than the PHB out of the gate, and distinctly designed subraces to boot. Why is there a need for more when a newbie has such a complex game to learn in the first place? I'd still honestly rather see longterm HMs with this as a perk rather than them being free game for everyone.
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well some newbies have no interest in the vanilla races. Something with a distinct culture is what they like.

Guess the only thing to do now is to try to think up a guide to earning hm fast.
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Zathery



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Verbannon wrote:
Guess the only thing to do now is to try to think up a guide to earning hm fast.


And with that quote I feel you have no respect for HM and that we were wrong giving it to you. If you read what I wrote, you'd know that you don't need HM to get to play a restricted race, you need to be on that road, aka understanding of the game and the ability to show it ICly with RP proper of your race/class/diety/alignment without it feeling cookie cutter, aswell as an OOC display of respect to other players and the staff aswell as the game and its intent and spirit.

Restricted races are restricted because they are harder to play, not only with a mechanical reasoning, aka level adjustments, no PK protection (for some), restriction to certain content that aids your progress (fewer shops for components, placement of temples etc). But also the IC responsability that an LA race takes on, there is a world of differance between playing a Wild elf compared to a Moon elf, an Aasimar compared to Human. Not mentioning beast or Kill on Sight races like drow and the difficulties they'll face. And if you gave a true newbie a drow because that's what they wanted to play, the fact that they run a high risk of a high level PKing them and drop-hitting would more than likely make them quit.

This isn't WoW where the most important thing is 'everyone should get all content' this is a game of roleplaying and earned achievement. Handing out restricted races, ignoring the risk of PK for certain KOS races, is that they'll be breaking immersion for the rest of the game with poor RP and could even run the risk of ridding or when an IMM or other players are forced to step in OOCly to tell them what they're doing wrong, there is a high risk of either the person taking it the wrong way and quitting, or getting upset and jailed or rid for going to far in a discussion.
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beshaba



Joined: 02 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no way that I can sign off on that "Ultimate Guide to Making HM Fast". Just to address some of your points:

2.) The point of needing HM before handing a restricted race is that they require a competent handling of their lore and the particulars of each individual race. Especially the beast races, who will have further handicaps and require an in depth knowledge of the game in order to even stand a chance. A newbie will not return after trying a goblin, for example, and being blind the whole time because they don't know about dark vision or dark lanterns (and this is just the tip of the iceberg).

3.) The imms make the call on HM. They rely on the HMs to bring up candidates that they may have missed, and listening to the HMs will allow the imms to get a different perspective, but it is ultimately on them.

7.) Conflict can be good. Conflict spurs on most of the most rewarding RP... but it doesn't need to include PK. Someone who PKs at the drop of a hat will quickly find themselves given a wide berth with no interactions. Respect the ability of PK to compliment RP, but abuse will ruin any effect.

For whatever reason, you have this "newbies need access to restricted races" stuck in your head Verbannon. Please see that it's detrimental to a newbie to have access to most of them, and requires a skilled hand to bring them to life. Some people can't even play elves right, and you want to give them ogre-magi?
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Ares
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:06 pm    Post subject: Earning HM Reply with quote

I don't think writing a guide to earning HM quickly is necessarily a bad idea. It would have to explain in more detail how to do things that we expect our high mortals to do. Even if they are "faking it" and playing nice until they get high mortal, then they still learn what is required of them during the process. If they then abuse their status, it takes even longer to earn it back after it's been removed.

Remember, different people learn things differently. What comes naturally to some might not be as intuitive to others. If a guide would help some people learn better, I don't think we should discourage it.
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And Zathery you have completely ignored this entire thread except for what I said. So I can't reply to you except to say you are contradicting what Nienne has already said in this thread.

And I'll reinterate we need to keep newbies playing and one thing that discourages them is the thought they will have to play characters they aren't interested in for a long time before they can get one they are in. A fast track guide to hm would hopefully alleviate the discouragement so they stick around.

I would say you are making assumptions that are wrong, like that I want to give newbies restricted race access, which is wrong, I wanted to make it so they don't have to make a full hm character before they can get one, but you aren't even making assumptions. You just don't like me, and are speaking out of your opinion of me rather than much of anything being said.

I already discussed my hm guide after firs making it with the people on the mud, I just threw it together after an hour so I would have a basis for discussion and am now redoing it, creating instead a general guide that will be supplemented by a list of tips on playing beast races and how to prepare for getting a beast race. And a list of tips on how to get hm faster.

But I do feel like nobody ever read this part.

Quote:
The hmbase appreciates someone willing to involve themselves in conflict, but abhors someone that can be classified as just a "pker". Always make sure before you pk there is a good amount of build up RP so the reasons for the PK are clear. And prioritize alternative conflict resolutions. Basically think of ways to hurt your enemies other than PK. Especially if you have already been involved in PK over similar events before. This could be torture or maiming, maybe attacking their institution they belong to instead, enslaving/imprisoning (If a good guy put the bad guy on a rope and just drag him/her along saying he is your prisoner until you can find a jail that'll actually hold him/her) them. Some sort of blackmail, magical compulsion or deal that gets them to act better/worse. Ect. Its often a good idea to think of killing the player as what you do only after everything else has been exhausted. And in spite of what the pk help file says, characters are aware that death is not a long term solution.


and

Quote:
the imms make the final call but they base it mostly on the opinion of the hms.

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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://shadowgatemud.wikia.com/wiki/The_Guide_to_becoming_a_High_Mortal

My new and improved hm guide, I'm too wiped from typing it up to proofread it or make sure it makes sense. So I'll just wait until people complain about stuff in it then fix it retroactively. Thats how I prefer to work anyway.
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Zathery



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nope, I'm not overly fond of you Verbannon. I tried helping you back in the day and you pretty much blew me off since you were greatly assured you were right in pissing people off on lines and ignoring the spirit of the game, to list a few things. I'm glad you've evolved and earned your HM but you're still stuck in the mindset that you're right and everyone else just isn't listening to you.

It's late so I might actually be missing it, but your quotes aren't actually in this thread but a wiki post that you linked to afterwards.

Newbies don't need access to restricted races, they probably need a more teaching newbie experience rather than a wall of text on posters, probably a level or two of handholding before leaving character creation for their class, with warnings for the more advanced classes (aka casters or more RP heavy classes like paladins) This ofcourse should be opt out for those of us creating a new PC and dont need the handholding.

And telling people how they should act to earn HM could lead to people faking it, getting what they want (even though, again, as I've said, you don't need HM to get a restricted race, but you can read that higher up) and then showing their true colors, getting their HM removed or even rid and then we run a high risk of loosing a player, instead of someone who gets into the game through a 'nicer' learning curve, earning their status and then perhaps they invite a friend or two from their gaming group or family or whatever, and then they can help teach that/those new players and we have people earning their status as proper SG'ers and not powergaming people who wont last long.

By all means, write and get an imm to sign off on a wiki article on HM and what is expected of players to earn that status, one of them being invested time in a fleshed out character. But writing an article on how to fast track to HM, basicly telling them how to ignore the spirit of the game to get perks, will cause more harm than good.

Also, you invalidate yourself as soon as you try to pull out the 'you're not agreeing with me because you don't like me' defence. Food for thought.
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