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Town Hall meeting Request
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kellan



Joined: 27 Oct 2013
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:06 pm    Post subject: Town Hall meeting Request Reply with quote

My SG Friends,

I want to start this by apologizing to Brando and Bain.I know I was a dick and I could have been 10000 times more tactful. I felt hurt and like I was being pushed out of SG for my style of play. I've thought a lot about this and I believe it is how the less rp inclined players felt years ago.

we are a huge family and we can let this place die or we can rally together. I'm asking everyone to find time in our busy rl life to log in for an oocly meeting to see if we can find balance.

I'm requesting that Saide, Ares, N, Octo, Circe and g be there along with as many avatars as possible. please put aside the issues and let's all chat openly. I feel real time is better than the forum.

For players who are gone. please return Dorje, Krusk, Belen, Rayne , Azalon, Aunwee and InnaeIi, Aramel, Saradin, Verbannon and plus all others. I want this to be a lot of us to find common ground. To reunite and to move forward. I'm giving this one last shot and hoping I can make a difference. I'll create an agenda once we have a time and we can truly build this place into an awesome place to adventure while telling deep adult stories. invite all your sg friends to read this please.

Alzy's hail marry play
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garrett
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Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 277
Location: Shadowgate's Evil Overlord Room

PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll try to make myself more available over the next week.

I'll try to be online on Friday, August 24th at 3:00 Eastern, and you can email me at garrett.from.sg@gmail.com, should you desire.

Please don't send bunnies through the email, it just makes them hopping mad.
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Nienne
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Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 2609
Location: Aussieland

PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm lurking around, timezone permitting - bear in mind I can only really surface in US-hours over my weekend (fri/sat night US) as in other US-peak hours I am at work or asleep.

Also a heads up I've just been confirmed to be moving house (yet again) within the next 2-3 weeks, so depending how that goes I may still be limited availability the next short while. Unfortunately unavoidable with ongoing family stuff but hopefully can settle down thereafter.
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kellan



Joined: 27 Oct 2013
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for replying g and Nienne. Sorry to hear another move is on the horizon for you N. If the forum is better for everyone that is fine too. I just felt like an open discussion where we could resolve some of the issues that have been plaguing SG for years could be helpful. To build a transparent mud where players and immortals didn't feel like they had to do a song and dance so much. I know it has gotten so much better since g took over, but it still has issues and the latest issues have caused so much of our immortal staff to walk away that I'd like to see if we can find common ground.

I'm of the opinion that while Cyric is putting tons of effort into recruiting, it isn't going to work. We have done tons of recruiting in the past and it rarely leads to people who "stay", it leads to people who try, but not who stay. I feel what we need to do is appeal to players whom have stopped playing. So I have a few questions that I'd love for players and immortals to comment on.

1. Is there any middle ground or progression with the Tsera situation, which would allow for Saide and the others to return?

2. How do we find a balance between no paperwork/pt requirements, but also maintain high rp expectations?

3. Do we even want RP expectations?

4. Do any of us feel like SG has a future beyond 3-5 players normally logged on with the occasional jump to over 10?

5. Where are we going? Ie, are we going down the path of free for all, no rp, just OOC chit chat and slaying dragonz?

6. Why do people play SG?

7. Personal question here, because I don't understand. Why would you play SG without wanting to RP? Are there not better games out there than SG for hack-n-slash or to just adventure and chat?

8. Do we feel RP enforcement is bad?

These are some of the topics I wanted to cover and I wanted to get input from immortals and alike to make the Town Hall Meeting very helpful. I know that some people I discussed it with are concerned that it won't resolve anything. I truly believe that is a great possibility if we don't try to resolve them, if we are all fine where we are and going, then why don't we just close the mud? It isn't growing, it isn't doing very well at all. If we aren't trying to tell amazing stories, code amazing adventures and move past the need to have secrecy on so much, when OOCLY most of us know it, why do we still operate like this 20 years later? As we all know I could careless who knows my alts or who knows who I know IRL, or who I enjoy rping with etc. I don't get why all of this has to be hidden. I do understand why plot areas, plots and RP elements are hidden to surprise us, but we have so many players who are immortals playing at the same time, that it gets out anyway.

So lastly and most importantly, I want to thank all of you for reading this and for anyone that responds. I truly love this place and I'm passionate about it, but if we can't find a future for it, I don't see much of a game left.

Alzar
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cyric
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Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 291
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personal stuff is hidden as a holdover from the way the internet used to be back in the day. Imo if you want to put that stuff out there you should be able to.

As for why people leave, I've already put in what I think needs to be addressed as the major issues.

1. Steep learning curve - tried to address this with a written tutorial. Long term we should create a more comprehensive IG tutorial and do away with Offestry so players can jump straight into interacting. That's much more difficult to do than write a bunch of class guides. IMO we should also have a wiki to help new players navigate because every game in the world has all of its secrets wide open on the internet but not ours... opinions are mixed about that part.
2. Lack of high level stuff to do - there are a couple ways to address this, you can open up certain perks and stuff to do if you retire your character and start a new one, or you can create more end game content, or both.
3. Broken economy - gold is too easy to acquire and you have nothing to spend it on. There are multiple ways to deal with this as well, from creating things to spend it on, to depreciating currency in bank accounts, to making the gold you collect and spend from areas variable (i.e. if an area isn't played through in a while, it's gold variable increases). Creating things (rented property, labs, equipment etc) which require periodic upkeep is another way to make gold meaningful.
4. Lack of plots/oversight - due to not enough immorts, directly correlated with not enough players. We get more players, we get more imm coverage.
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well giving my opinion is something I can do. Though my opinion has changed little over the years.

2. Bullet points. Bullet points make the paperwork easier. Also I recall my early days in SG. And how I was given advice that was so canned it might as well have been automated. I like to assume people who come to Shadowgate intend to RP. They just suck at it and need constructive advice. And "follow the examples of others" has serious limitations, there is also a clear disconnect between what can be done, What the imms think can be done, what the imms say should be done and what they say to do. I think the advice I got most often was "just go pk someone" and various ways to optimise while handwaving away any rp concerns, "Hey you want that Aurilite weapon than take that Aurilite weapon, just stamp Tempus's symbol on it".

Also the expectation that 'the first character is a throw away learning character' is just wrong. You want good rp but you are telling people to play 'simple starting characters until they learn the game'. I was literally told to dump Verbannon and 'start over' before I hit level 25 because I had mistakenly rped with Auril and ruined my reputation. There should be a set of rules in place to allow HMs to contact new players oocly and tell them lore and setting info when it becomes relevant so the chances of major screw up drop.

3.Yes.

4.Not I.

5. I don't think ooc chit chat is such a bad idea. To have an actual community, its important people are able to socialize. Especially if you want to keep players during a low player base. So I think the game should allow ooc socializing while trying to strengthen roleplaying ic, and try to promote more complex and substantive roleplaying. Let people do things behind the scenes, this game isn't about dungeon diving, the real game is about politics and ic relationship so lets focus on that. The Dungeons are more like a side game for equiping.

6. Because everything else sucks worse rpwise and it does have a real D&D feel to it.

7. Actually SG's massive size could probably appeal to explorer types.

8. I don't. BURN THE NON-RPING HERITICS.

@Cyric

1.I disagree. Offestry is amazing and is the best place in any mud I know of just for learning to mud. Its actually more fun to explore imo then the rest of the game. Since its at least not glitching to hell or unfinished like over half of the dungeon areas in the rest of the game.

2. I think HMs who retire a character should be allowed to create a new character connected to the retired one so they can continue development of their own little area of influence if they want.

3. Why am I the only person without lots of gold? I think the problem is because you have the stupid shifters which are imo just plain awful. They are what is most broken abot the game and economy I think. This isn't World of Warcraft, this is dungeons and dragons. People should be diving into dungeons for their magic items and gold not grinding shifters! HATE SHIFTERS! STUPID SHIFTERS! DIE DIE DIE!

4. And lack of imms means lack of players. Its spiral of DOOM!
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Lujke
Immortal


Joined: 18 Nov 2006
Posts: 496

PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think I'm likely to be able to be online then, but I'd like to see the discussion. Could someone keep/post a log?
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cyric
Immortal


Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 291
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Verbannon, while offestry has some good beginner quests, older players race through and will generally not stop to rp with newbies. Higher level characters don't go there. Assuming rp is one thing which sets us apart, this doesn't put our best face forward when new players appear there after chargen. Offestry should be connected to the rest of the game and newbies should be able to interact with HMs.

Our retention rate for new players is abysmal. That means they log in, mess around in offestry for a little bit, and leave. Clearly our newbie intro area isn't doing what it needs to.
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garrett
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Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 277
Location: Shadowgate's Evil Overlord Room

PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lujke wrote:
I don't think I'm likely to be able to be online then, but I'd like to see the discussion. Could someone keep/post a log?

I'm online, and I'll post a log here of what is discussed as clean as I can make it.
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garrett
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Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 277
Location: Shadowgate's Evil Overlord Room

PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay. got the log, working on editing, it'll appear here when done as an edit.
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Weird it was the newbie intro that kept me here, it was just so shockingly perfect. Though I had people to party with. Though both those people did leave. One because of the bugged chests at the time (he was annoyed at losing everything so quit) and the other was a goblin and well just didn't stick around I don't know why. Also from what I've seen most of our new players don't drop until around level 10-20. Thats the main drop off rate. A dwarf we had once named Underhelm said it was because he was unable to get past those levels. At least not through exploration. And I see what he means. Our early level content is great. Our high level content is adequate. Our mid-high level content is great. Our low-mid content though, is poor. We have low-mid level areas but the ones that aren't painfully obsolete or buggy are hard to find and usually right next to a 'kill your ass fast' area. Also the dark trail is wonky with the xp. By time it becomes actually survivable without a group or being a druid/cleric/2h weapon fighter it stops giving decent xp.
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also I think it would be great if people got a small amount of xp every time they entered a new room. Although I liked exploring dungeons I for one still have barely looked around any of the cities. A bit of exploration rewards would help. The trainer is more of a punishment for not exploring than a motivator to explore imo.
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saide
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Joined: 18 Mar 2007
Posts: 362

PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to apologize for missing the meeting. I ended up having to work during the time that it took place and I knew this before hand but a couple days ago I had changed my email with my account on here and ended up locking myself out. I wasn't able to get back into my account until Nienne unlocked it for me.
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would apologize for missing the meeting but I was asleep so I don't feel I did anything wrong by missing it.
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saide
Immortal


Joined: 18 Mar 2007
Posts: 362

PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the idea of exploration feeling more rewarding. I really think we need to investigate different methods of gaining exp and generalize what you do gain in areas around the game.

I know at one point the idea was that in areas with gold, the exp and gear was bad, in areas with exp the gold and gear was bad, etc. I think we need to work on finding some balance so no matter what area you go to at your level (if it's designed for your level) it feels like a good investment of your time.

And what if it presented you some random RP personalized to you based on your character? I mean obviously this would take some effort and would probably never feel as cool as an avatar plot but I think it might help. What do you guys think?
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