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ViolaRose



Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also.. yes to everything Mister Black said. Yes yes yes.
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kellan



Joined: 27 Oct 2013
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, first and foremost damn I must have had more sugar and lack of sleep than I thought. That was a lot of Fbombs. I apologize for the language last night. Anyway, my point is we need a last ditch effort and a hail marry. I personally agree with ViolaRose. There is no saving SG, no code, no amount of immortals nothing that can be done. I've watched since I created Alzar roughly 5 years ago the cycle get shorter and shorter. People leave for RL issues, bordeom etc. I've seen people idle and log on just hoping it'd get others online. Verb and I used to do it a lot. The game was great, it isn't now, that sucks. The truth is way too many cliques, too many immortals vs players and so much more drama over the years has ruined it. SG is more political than my RL job, which MAKES no sense too me.

Personally at this point all I'd come back for beside the random 15-30 minute log in, read some boards, chat on HM line would be some dramatic changes. Some RPers I know who are RP first logged in with some people who can adapt and some freaking PK. Good grief could we get some nonpk conflict and some pk conflict, its like we play a drama with no tension Razz

Anyway, I love all ya guys and hope everyone of you has a blessed holiday. Let me know if I can help. I'm here to wiz, avatar, play(if there are players), but I refuse to keep tossing my life away for 3 players whom I never see.

Alzy
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I honestly disagree with the core statements of just about everyone here. Though a shakeup might be nice, the thing is, its not a lack of players hurting the game, thats a symptom. We have surges of players then they leave.

Thats the problem, new players leave. And I've spent a lot of time talking to new players, discussing with new players and they tell me the same things over and over again as to what makes them struggle to stay interested.

*How broken so many places in the game are.
*How frustrating the syntax is.
*How finite the mid level content is making leveling difficult. (Specifically the levels right after the pirates stop giving xp)
*How uninvolved the high level players are with the low levels.
*. And how completely lonely the game is to play at times even when a lot of people are on.

The game is fixable, it is. But you can only fix it if you actually pay attention to what is driving away the new players.

As for what drives away the new avatars, as far as I can tell, thats mostly a matter of deplorable communication between what the Avatars want and the players want.

What annoys me so much about this game and the people in it, is how many people are making theories and hypothosis' about whats wrong, based on nothing more than personal projection.

How many of you have actually talked to each other about these problems? And I don't mean the forum post, this isn't talking this is simply the posting of ideas.

How many of you have stayed in contact with new players, kept abreast of them as they level, constantly asking them how they are doing, whats fun what is frustrating them?

How many players have ever taken the time to talk to the Avatars ask them how they are doing, what frustrates them about the players?

How many Avatars overwhelmed or frustrated with the players have ever actually discussed with the players and told them how they feel?

Holy crap I'm a damn social recluse and even I know you need to communicate far more then what is happening.

This stupid thread is little more than masturbation, because the people who's opinions do matter most, don't post in the forum. That would be the new players.

I haven't been playing lately but thats actually not because of Shadowgate, thats because the app I use to play shadowgate, Blowtorch, keeps erasing my alias buttons.

Maybe the opinions of newbies have changed. But back when I last did a recruitment drive, these are the problems that kept popping up.

As for the competition reasoning, the competition for players playing muds hasn't changed in at least the whole time I've been here.
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saide
Immortal


Joined: 18 Mar 2007
Posts: 381

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A couple of other changes today.

First, when you die now you will also incur a 25% experience tax on experience gained within the next two hours. If you die again within that time then the tax will increase by 5% and the timer will reset up to a maximum of 50%.

Feats, Skills, and Stats no longer cost experience. Instead when adding a feat, remove a feat, increasing a stat, moving a stat, or removing a skill point you will incur a "character improvement" tax in the amount of what it would have previously cost you.

This tax will reduce your future experience gained by 50% until it is repaid. The remaining 50% will go toward your level (assuming you have no other taxes in place).

As an example:

If you are level 40 and increase your strength by 1 point you will incur a character improvement tax of 25 million experience.

If you die during that same time you will also incur a 25% death tax for two hours of logged in time.

If you gain 1000 experience from something 500 of it will go toward repaying your character improvement tax. The remaining 500 of it will be taxed by 25% - so you would receive 375 experience.

Hopefully this helps to reduce some of the grind in the game.

Enjoy!
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kellan



Joined: 27 Oct 2013
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Verbannon,

While some of what you say is true I don't agree with some of it. During my career as Alzar I used to log on late at night and rp with newbies or during the day as I had no job during his peak. I'd give little plots like collect 50 goblin ears, find xyz and I'd reward with gold, tokens, items. I probably pushed the boundary of any item proliferation rule that was in place in an attempt to keep players placing. I'd send mails to older players returning with story hooks, I'd ask any avatar online how I could help. The issue is that SG has always had a VERY close rules on communication. What you're asking someone to do has technically not been allowed for years, because we can't really voice our frustrations for fear of it ruining "immersion" or someone "cheating". It has lightened dramatically since you've been around, but old habits are hard to change.

Secondly, I don't think the game is that broken personally. There is some shit that isn't balance, but that isn't broken that is just poor balancing. There are some big bugs, but that shit we don't NORMALLY notice until its to a point its breaking the whole game. Syntax is a bitch, but what I'll never understand is if the 100s of players who played before could handle it wtf can't these new players? The games is about 1 million times easier than when I started and I recently tried a new mud and it was so confusing I didn't stay. It wasn't any worse or better than SG it was different and it had a HUGE learning curve too, the issue was I didn't care to invest the time into it to learn. That isn't IMMORTALS, OLDER PLAYER, OR AVATARS FAULT.. That is new players not wanting to learn, sorry if that offends people.

Thirdly, I don't think any new player will stay with 3 players logging in dude. We need old players who are skilled who can teach, who can be promoted to levels of immortalship to aid up there. We get a solid base of returning players we can then reach out to new players. However if we don't have that the few old players are going to be overwhelmed or bored teaching people mechanics and RP standards of SG. SG has always done a shitty, fucking job of sharing the workload. It is veiled in secrecy instead of a inclusive community. If the wizzes want to fix it, they need to start working with players, not having all these standards that are unreasonable. We need consistence and for goodness sake we need leadership. We all bitch about Tsera's cheating, we bitch about how corrupt she was and I've called her out myself a few times for thinking she was. However, she was there and she was a leader, she might NEVER have coded jack fucking squat, but YOU guys(IMMORTALS) let her get away with that, you did everything she asked, you worked on projects she recommended etc. You are donating your RL time here, quit viewing this as a damn job, fucking just take control.

Alright, sorry my little rant is over now. I'm tired of this conversation that has been going on for the past 10 years. Here is my deal. If any player wants to play and RP, send me a PM message. If I get enough of you, I'll use any OOC, IC, or any other bridge I haven't burned combined with your bridges to forge a new SG. if the immortal staff won't lead, the players will, because they have no game without us.

Chris
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me be frank, collecting 10 bear asses is not rp. Thats a fetch quest. Even if its a fetch quest given by a player, its still just a fetch quest. And yes I know communication has always been taboo. Hence the problem and problems we are having. I think that lack of communication has resulted in social entropy.

As for my list of reasons given, arguing "that shouldn't be a turn off, it wasn't for us" isn't productive. If a reason given for game frustration always existed then that means that frustration is a symptom of some other change. But the frustration is real and dismissing it helps no one.

As for why new players can't figure out syntax, my guess is that its not that they can't, its that they no longer have something else to do when they need to take a break from the frustration.

A guess of mine as to what changes might have been might be something like A lot of changes have gone in which have discouraged interaction with newer players.

For instance the level adjustment rules, maybe they are good in theory but I think they were explained very poorly. And I think the consequence has been that high level players now simply ignore low levels except for a bit of token rp in the tavern.


Now I'm going to give my solution, it unlike everyone else's does not include a simple fix everything change.

I think the imms need to go back over starting with the low level areas and fix bugs, rebalance the areas and the equipment and anything that can't be fixed, completely hide from sight. As much as we probably all want new content new content does not get in new players.

At the same time a new policy needs to be developed and put in place on communication between players and the imms, officially opening it up. Steal passages from the D&D DMGs on player/DM relationships if you have to. Make sure if Avatars start feeling stressed and overwhelmed they communicate this. Make sure players and especially hms know the proper protocols and etique in requesting avatar support so they don't overwhelm the avatars.

Clearly define the authority of HMs to run their own plots. And make sure this authority includes the ability to run something other than a soap opera on who is killing who and who is sleeping with who. The PKfest everyone seems to remember with such fondness had rp as only a secondary concern. You had maybe 2 or 3 players trying serious rp and the rest, they just wanted to pk and painted it with some rp justifications. I don't want to be elitist but I'm afraid I have to be elitist, when over a third of your players go "Verbannon talketh like this, Verbannon fight for balance. Verbannon fight good if good strong and evil weak. Verbannon fight evil if good strong and evil weak. Verbannon fight both if both strong."

You don't have a roleplaying mud, you have a pvp mud with some spray paint. If you want a roleplaying mud then your top roleplayers need clearly defined authority and a lot of it. They should be able to do things at least on a local level without asking permission first. Part of being hm should be that level of trust.

I recommend creating a new pk style report but for HMs only. One an hm fills out and submits whenever the hm runs a plot on his own.

This will take a while in the mean time we need a short term band-aid solution and I think Kellan gave it. After you institute the new communication and roleplaying authority policies. Put out advertising advertising a shadowgate reset. Then reset the mud, start everyone over. That way the old players can rp and keep the new players interested while the imms work on updating and rebalancing the game.

But some players, I say three players, voted the best of the best of the rpers by all current hms should maintain their hm status. So they can run plots on the local level.
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Brandobaris
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heya! This is likely to be my last post as an avatar, but given the turn this thread's taken and the speculation as to how the immortals are feeling about things, I thought it might be informative to give a perspective as someone who has actually had to deal with players in today's game environment.

The first thing I want to mention (I don't know if this has been made clear, but it's public knowledge) is that at that Nienne is now a game admin - currently the highest ranking imm around - and it's on her initiative that there's been some movement staff-side again. I also believe (correct me if I'm wrong?) that Saide is now LAW. Aside from them, there are at least five active wizzes of varying ranks that I have seen around recently. That's seven individuals all working on areas/systems/gameplay with the express intent of improving SG past its current state. We almost have more people creating content than we currently have players.

And yet...we have no avatars, and our wizzes run IG plots with frequencies ranging from "scarcely" to "never". And it's not like 2016 has been a year devoid of avatars, either, as Kossuth, Myrkul, and myself have all tried to run plots when possible. We've seen other faces before that. Yet at this stage, we've all either quit or moved to a different position within the staff. Why?

The short version is "players, mostly", and while I don't have time to give the long version, the problem here is demonstrated perfectly just a bit further down on this board, in Myrkul's thread ("what kinda plottage you wants?"). In it, Myrkul asks for player feedback while determining what sort of plots to run, and said that his favorite plots are ones that grow to incorporate a large variety of people. He gave no real restrictions on the plot's themes or circumstances, with the only requirement being that a sizable chunk of the playerbase be able to enjoy it.

There were a number of posts from players after that, but I think this one line from that thread best sums up player sentiment:

Quote:
Honestly the main thing I feel avatars are needed for isn't to run plots. At least not player focused ones. For player focused plots, all thats needed is for the avatars to roll some dice in the background.


Trust me - immortals are all too aware of "what players want".

Here's the thing: avatars are ShadowGate's DMs. And while DMs may vary in style and execution, they usually tend to want the same things. They want a party of PCs to work with. They want to have a number of challenges ready to throw at said PCs. And they want to watch those PCs overcome said challenges and succeed, despite struggling at times. That's what we -want-. What we -get- is a polarized group of PCs who struggle to remain civil, and who will constantly try to undermine and lie to each other even when they're ostensibly on the same team. We get scenarios where experienced players will drop out of character and react with aggression (passive or otherwise) the second they sense their PC being challenged in any meaningful way. And on the rare occasions when these players actually manage to complete a campaign or questline, nine times out of ten the player's response to the rewards (both RP and mechanical) is "gimme more".

"Just stay in the background and roll dice."

Look, avatars don't exist to be players' personal bookkeepers or chroniclers. When we get treated like that, we tend to want to find better things to do. Usually, we succeed in doing so.

-This- is why virtually nobody on the staff wants to deal with players, and why avatars are non-existent compared to other immortal ranks. And unfortunately, this isn't a problem that's within the staff's power to fix - a DM (and really, -any- meaningful RP) requires a party, and most players kind of suck at building those. Part of the responsibility for this -does- fall on the game mechanics (for instance, our wide selection of races, faiths and alignments makes it rare for even two characters to share meaningful common ground), but even then, players (especially our HMs) are the ones choosing to take advantage and play the game like this.

I'm sorry if any of that was uncomfortable to read (it was uncomfortable to write), but that's more or less the truth of things. If it's any consolation, we -have- been talking for a while about various improvements to the game. The changes to death mechanics were probably among the least of these - plans for things like factions, a restructuring of how the HM rank works, and even a (potential) system for enhancing player-run plots are all in various states of discussion/development. I have my doubts that any of these automated/self-service systems will ever match an experience granted by a dedicated avatar/party combination, but those might very well be the only things you guys have left at this point. As we saw in Myrkul's thread, any time an avatar -tries- to reach out, you incinerate us.

Anyhow, that's my final post as an avatar - I hope it was at least informative to some of you, even if it wasn't what you wanted to hear. See you around!
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kellan



Joined: 27 Oct 2013
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Verbannon - your idea's are reasonable. Don't see them happening, but love the focus on communication and love that you see through the "kinda" rp. I know it is a fetch quest too btw, but sometimes RP has to start with quests if they don't know how to RP or the mechanics. Example X player hates goblins so you rp to find out why and they killed his dad so you give them a small quest to benefit OOCLY and ICLY while building on that hatred. It isn't perfect, but as explain in your post there isn't a ton of shit HM's can do without skilled players around to help, we don't have the tools for unskilled players. Skilled player realize what it means when someone is High Priest or Archmagi or a Government official etc.

Brandobaris - All I got from your point was confirmation that most immortals(especially you) hate players. You didn't communicate with players, you told them how and why they should act a certain way. You rewinded years of RP with multiple characters with no explanation and to be honest, YOU are a big reason that people left. If you're a wiz now, I should just quit, because you'll never be objective to anyone who isn't in your IN crowd(Pang, Sierra, Raveena, Tsera's group) It is okay though, we all have favorites and the issue isn't that you had them it is that you treated the others like shit. I hold no good will towards you and honestly pretty much hate you even commenting on shit anymore.

Lastly if there are so many immortals around and so few players, do you think that might hint at a larger problem? You guys are making a game you want to play, but NO one else does? Do you think that including us(PLAYERS) in the thought process of what happens upstairs is a good idea? We all dedicate TIME to play sg, that is the currency we pay and it is WAY more valuable than money to most people. So explain to me as a staff how there are more immortals than players?

A
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ViolaRose



Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the subject of newbies...

There are walls put into place to keep us from interacting with new players. First, obviously, is Offestry. I understand the purpose of having a learning zone, but segregating new players to that extent leads to a lot of boredom. Old players rush through the area, new players rarely give the game the chance after being absolutely alone for a few days.

If they make it through Offestry, they go to Tabor, where high leveled players are encouraged not to go. And if we do go to Tabor, we're expected to reel in our roleplay as to follow the guidelines of levelcheck. That's fine, whatever. But it's just another wrench thrown into these interactions.

And then there is Seneca where most anyone 25+ gathers. It makes sense that they do, given the quest board/gold token dealer is there. But this alienates lower-leveled players who can't even hope to take a portal to Seneca until level 25.

These boundaries should, in my opinion, all be removed. Maybe bring all these boards/vendors into a central location..

I think we should, at this point, be welcome to aid lower leveled players. Give them a piece of cool gear, send them on quests for tokens, without fear of being smacked for it. I think it was Alzar who mentioned item proliferation - why the hell not? Newbies are at such a disadvantage to this game when it comes to those of us who could level to 40 in a week, blindfolded.

Additionally, if they ask for help on a quest - give it. Why not write cheat guides for quests available to anyone who wants to use them? People want instant gratification these days, and wasting two days to figure out they should have typed 'fit' rather than 'insert' just isn't going to cut it.


Last edited by ViolaRose on Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nienne
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Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 2653
Location: Aussieland

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not going to put commentary to a lot of the negative responses here as it hurts my head (although granted I didn't sleep well last night so it was hurting to start with Razz). Definitely a big thank you to some of those offering constructive feedback, there's definite valid points here as well that I'll keep in mind.

At this point I think the main reason there's more imms than players is that we've had a big downturn on both sides of the fence after a fairly major upset earlier this year; upstairs we've recently been trying to bring things back together. However aside from Saide's efforts, most of the work hasn't yet heavily impacted/been seen by the player side. I myself have been working more on consolidating resources for new/future imms so we can get the ball rolling again - sorry I know it's not helping you all so much just yet, but hopefully it will improve things for everyone going forward.

Once done I'll be back to working on the player side of things; the faction system is sitting in the wings part-done along with other projects, and I usually try for a major christmas plot arc, or several smaller ones, if I get leave enough from work. Several other coders are working on new areas, but obviously those won't be apparent until they're done, and kudos to Saide for already getting several solid changes installed. Our focus at this point will be primarily on playability, removing existing frustrations and/or making things easier to understand for new players. I'm sorry it's probably not rolled out at a high speed to see a resolution and a greater player influx already, but these things do take time and at least in my court, RL family stuff is still very much a contender for my time.

For now, we'll keep working on it, and certainly I welcome any constructive feedback for other things to work on that we may not have considered. Even at this point, a lot of our updates come primarily from player feedback, so it's an invaluable tool in giving us direction Smile Thanks for your patience!
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kellan



Joined: 27 Oct 2013
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nienne,

Could we start a forum post where IMMortals list what they are working on code wise from creator to top dog? That way we as players know what is eating people's time? That way we might be able to balance stuff before it goes in. My idea is that the transparency might alleviate some of the frustration immortals experience by us overwhelming and needy players. Sometimes we just don't know you guys are working on stuff.

Just a thought, hope it is a good one.
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Nienne
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Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 2653
Location: Aussieland

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not a bad idea if people would feel better about knowing things are going on when it's quiet? I'm not sure who would find it helpful and whether most players may just not care until it's accessible to them. Happy to consider it if it would be seen as useful Smile
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brandobaris wrote:
Heya! This is likely to be my last post as an avatar, but given the turn this thread's taken and the speculation as to how the immortals are feeling about things, I thought it might be informative to give a perspective as someone who has actually had to deal with players in today's game environment.

The first thing I want to mention (I don't know if this has been made clear, but it's public knowledge) is that at that Nienne is now a game admin - currently the highest ranking imm around - and it's on her initiative that there's been some movement staff-side again. I also believe (correct me if I'm wrong?) that Saide is now LAW. Aside from them, there are at least five active wizzes of varying ranks that I have seen around recently. That's seven individuals all working on areas/systems/gameplay with the express intent of improving SG past its current state. We almost have more people creating content than we currently have players.

And yet...we have no avatars, and our wizzes run IG plots with frequencies ranging from "scarcely" to "never". And it's not like 2016 has been a year devoid of avatars, either, as Kossuth, Myrkul, and myself have all tried to run plots when possible. We've seen other faces before that. Yet at this stage, we've all either quit or moved to a different position within the staff. Why?

The short version is "players, mostly", and while I don't have time to give the long version, the problem here is demonstrated perfectly just a bit further down on this board, in Myrkul's thread ("what kinda plottage you wants?"). In it, Myrkul asks for player feedback while determining what sort of plots to run, and said that his favorite plots are ones that grow to incorporate a large variety of people. He gave no real restrictions on the plot's themes or circumstances, with the only requirement being that a sizable chunk of the playerbase be able to enjoy it.

There were a number of posts from players after that, but I think this one line from that thread best sums up player sentiment:

Quote:
Honestly the main thing I feel avatars are needed for isn't to run plots. At least not player focused ones. For player focused plots, all thats needed is for the avatars to roll some dice in the background.


Trust me - immortals are all too aware of "what players want".

Here's the thing: avatars are ShadowGate's DMs. And while DMs may vary in style and execution, they usually tend to want the same things. They want a party of PCs to work with. They want to have a number of challenges ready to throw at said PCs. And they want to watch those PCs overcome said challenges and succeed, despite struggling at times. That's what we -want-. What we -get- is a polarized group of PCs who struggle to remain civil, and who will constantly try to undermine and lie to each other even when they're ostensibly on the same team. We get scenarios where experienced players will drop out of character and react with aggression (passive or otherwise) the second they sense their PC being challenged in any meaningful way. And on the rare occasions when these players actually manage to complete a campaign or questline, nine times out of ten the player's response to the rewards (both RP and mechanical) is "gimme more".

"Just stay in the background and roll dice."

Look, avatars don't exist to be players' personal bookkeepers or chroniclers. When we get treated like that, we tend to want to find better things to do. Usually, we succeed in doing so.

-This- is why virtually nobody on the staff wants to deal with players, and why avatars are non-existent compared to other immortal ranks. And unfortunately, this isn't a problem that's within the staff's power to fix - a DM (and really, -any- meaningful RP) requires a party, and most players kind of suck at building those. Part of the responsibility for this -does- fall on the game mechanics (for instance, our wide selection of races, faiths and alignments makes it rare for even two characters to share meaningful common ground), but even then, players (especially our HMs) are the ones choosing to take advantage and play the game like this.

I'm sorry if any of that was uncomfortable to read (it was uncomfortable to write), but that's more or less the truth of things. If it's any consolation, we -have- been talking for a while about various improvements to the game. The changes to death mechanics were probably among the least of these - plans for things like factions, a restructuring of how the HM rank works, and even a (potential) system for enhancing player-run plots are all in various states of discussion/development. I have my doubts that any of these automated/self-service systems will ever match an experience granted by a dedicated avatar/party combination, but those might very well be the only things you guys have left at this point. As we saw in Myrkul's thread, any time an avatar -tries- to reach out, you incinerate us.

Anyhow, that's my final post as an avatar - I hope it was at least informative to some of you, even if it wasn't what you wanted to hear. See you around!


All this frustration, and yet its pretty much never addressed until you quit. My point is proven. If the Avatars are frustrated and they don't tell the players until they quit, then the players have no way of improving.

From the perspective of the players, Avatars mostly seem to just run silly plots like Myrkuls nightly random encounter. Where they do something but there is no real way to follow up on it. Or they tell us to rp with each other and do our own plots with each other but make sure we get permission and get avatar assistance before we do anything important or Like with Loki's last three plots, Avatar makes something happen, then half the time nothing follows up at all and the other half of the time, the plot gets dropped midway through.

I'm sure there are very good reasons for all of that, but since the Avatars never communicate this the players have to go with what they can see. And what the players can see is the only rp and plots that ever seems to work is personal plots with an avatar acting as a human dice roller.

Thats why I often request that dice rolling somehow be put into the hands of the HMs.

@Kellan

Avoid the personal attacks Kellan. Whether you are right or wrong they serve no constructive purpose.

@ViolaRose

Actually I think the newbie area is one of the most perfect and constructive parts of the game. The newbie area is probably more fun then 60% of the rest of the game. Try to remember that as a D&D mud, Shadowgate is in the prfect position to draw and attract players who have never played a MU* before. These players need the newbie area. I recommend at most you give an option for players familiar with MU*'s to skip Offestry.

I agree with the rest of your post though.

@Nienne Factions are good and something I hope for, to motivate higher level players to collect newbies like they were pokemon. But when the faction system goes the high level low level player interactions will desperately need to be revised.

Also yes players care to know these things. Holy crap, players love progress bars and knowing how things are coming. There is nothing worse then dead space not knowing what the heck is happening. A progress report is almost as good as actually finishing a feature when it comes to energizing the player base.
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myrkul



Joined: 19 Dec 2009
Posts: 279

PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brandobaris wrote:

Look, avatars don't exist to be players' personal bookkeepers or chroniclers.


Preach on Brother Brandobaris! Lols, about fell out of my chair Smile

Two thoughts folks - Along the lines of what Brando is saying, I'm happy to make plots that people would like to do as a group, and I am really less interested in helping individual players write a travelogue about their adventures through SG. A plot needs to be of general interest to other players as a first priority, and if it advances your individual pc story, that's a bonus.

Second, what are ya'all here for? I'm here for the people because even if I had a bunch of D&D books, they aren't any good without a bunch of friends to play with Smile I'd just suggest that it's more important to enjoy the good company than to get too worried about the details, which change from time to time anyways.

Best,
Myrkul
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kellan



Joined: 27 Oct 2013
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Myrkul and Brandobaris

I think the issue is both of you're not sure how to avatar. You seem to be misunderstanding what we are saying and when I say you aren't sure how to avatar, I don't mean that as a lack of talent or a ability. I mean you aren't understanding what is required from a player's point of view. I'll give you examples and these are actual plots that were run by AVATARS.

First I'm going to state something that really gripes me. Please hold yourselves accountable to RULES IG. Don't have a god attack cities when there Charge says they won't or have Tempusian holy warriors use poison when they are all about honor without MAJOR repercussion for said group or deity.

Secondly, I'm sorry Myrkul, but this isn't a video game to most players. It is a story-telling game and random encounters or exploding poop completely ruins the immersion and to be at the very least make me just cringe.

So here are some plots that progressed the story line, but included multiple players.

Nightfall's divinity plot was long it was included in a world plot. It involved every player on the mud, but it progressed Nightfall's personal story while giving others something to do.

Alzar's high priest plot - I was giving High Priest and it included Dahelia, Dorje, Marie, Mithras, Azalon, Singer, Rayne and about a dozen others with small interactions they probably aren't aware of at different times that lead to this outcome. It wasnt massive, but it was fun from my point of view and I know from a couple others. It was heartbreaking.

Tharis destruction plot by Innaeli - It wasn't for her completely I don't think but being a good RPer and including others(thats the big word). SHE included others the plot helped drive her reputation as a Talosian.

Now as Anhur I wasn't as skilled as I would have liked to have been. My grammar was shit back then, I was still in a player mindset, but with Tsera's blessing and a shitty run plot I gave Cyric extra portfolios. The plot centered around multiple people from Rameriz, Ethius, Azalon, Daehlia, Belendithas, Saqira etc. Some stayed some left, I tried to help people progress their stories. An example was Ethius had issue with Shar at the time, I gave him an opportunity to view Cyric from a different light. Years later I'm playing Alzar and Ethius is a Cyricist. Who knew the rp would lead to that?

The issue is that you guys seem to want to make SG these random encounters, fetch quests etc. Most RPers log into SG to RP a concept. Alzar started off as a serial murderer, but the first player I killed had a really hard time with it and though I got away with it, I felt bad. I talked to Auril who helped me think through my ideas and helped me realized what I was truly after was conversion and that is how Alzar was born. He did PERSONAL plots to help me down this road by having people frame me for murders. Dorje and Krusk were really the only other players involved, but that was intentional as we were trying to cover the murder up to keep my reputation good until it went bad through our mischief and mayhem.

I know the people who are like minded like me and view this place as a vibrant story telling setting aren't here for the short encounters they aren't here for any piece of code or item. Those are all icing on the cake. They are here to create stories pure and simple, whether those be personal stories, AVATAR created stories or world plots. We want to shape the world, see it changing. People want to dream to be Gods or Kings and become them, they want to make PCnotes that mean something and they used to with avatars like Lurue, Ari, Shar, Selune etc. They all HAD their faults as we all do. However Loki was amazing at reading backgrounds and including shit in his plots. I never GAVE Alzar a last name or a firm childhood he was sold into slavery to Cyric's temple. I did that under the assumption that avatars in the past would see that and be like, hey alzy, mind if I run with this and any favor you'd like or they'd just go with it and you dealt with it. Of course players still bitched back then, that won't ever change. People just see their characters different than outside perspective.

From My point of view an AVATARS job is simple. Create a compelling life like world that code can't. Help players progress player plots, create stories or world plots that change the fabric of the reality we are dealing with. Avatars are the first line of SG. Avatars make or break SG, it is that simple. IMO SG will never have success until we get a firm grasp on avatars/non avatars. We used to not have avatars, but after they were introduced and they started running plots people became addicted. You could alter avatars program to be ran by HM's, which is probably for the best, the issue is that still probably wouldn't give players the tools to create mind-blowing world, medium and small plots.

My two copper
Alzy
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