Shadowgate Forum Index Shadowgate
You can't fudge your dice rolls here...
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Death
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Shadowgate Forum Index -> General discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always find it odd for people to insist that the game is a social game, when there are so many communication taboos.

But to be honest, in character socialization cannot be a focus of the mud. Because that puts Shadowgate in competition with RP chatrooms which do it way, way, way better than a mud ever could. The in character socialization is just a moderate sized facet of the larger game.
_________________
PM me in the forum here when you want me on to RP or dungeon dive. The forum will automatically notify me by e-mail. Then my e-mail will send me a text message. Then I will get on likely within minutes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
myrkul



Joined: 19 Dec 2009
Posts: 279

PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Verbannon wrote:
I always find it odd for people to insist that the game is a social game, when there are so many communication taboos.


SG has a really long history. If I remember correctly, and I admit I could be wrong here, but many of the rules date back to when Tristan was in charge. The issue he was concerned with was when people would log in all at the same time to PK people (or specific individual) from another guild. So if people were communicating via ICQ at the same time they were playing, they could organize a lot better and could directly trade OOC information without worrying about wiz/admins getting involved.

From another line of discussion, stopping trading 3rd party info might protect against RL harassment, and those rules also might better protect the mud from those kinds of issues. I suppose the conversation about trading 3rd party contact info could be revisited but this might give some context - and again I may not have right of this but its what memories serves.

And lastly - SG is definitely a social game - it's fun when other people log in! You never know what will happen!! Smile

Best,
Myrkul
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Aunuit



Joined: 14 Jul 2014
Posts: 9
Location: oregon

PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Verbannon wrote:
I always find it odd for people to insist that the game is a social game, when there are so many communication taboos.

But to be honest, in character socialization cannot be a focus of the mud. Because that puts Shadowgate in competition with RP chatrooms which do it way, way, way better than a mud ever could. The in character socialization is just a moderate sized facet of the larger game.


I believe that most of us would disagree with this. In game socialization was the main point of SG for the majority of those that played for over a decade. That's not just a feeling. The mechanics of SG have never been good enough to be the main attraction for most players, as verbannon pointed out - they're oftentimes a deterrent, especially for new players! Most of us can afford computers that run other games that are more graphically and mechanically gratifying, but we haven't found anything to fill the void that was good RP in SG.

I can recall a time when I lost HM over not properly playing my race and alignment, because I was too attached to a character that I should've just quit in favor of rerolling something that would have allowed me to play how I wanted to. Believe it or not I wish roleplay were still enforced to that degree. I wish players took roleplay that seriously and left their goofy dick and fart jokes for RL. There are a lot that don't.

I also don't disagree with brando about player attitudes. Avataring is pretty thankless, sometimes even when you're doing a bang up job. And a lot of the players are assholes, myself included most of the time. That being said, I've also been witness to clumsy avatars completely mucking up things that have taken characters months if not years to develop. I've turned down offers for interaction from avatars I didn't trust to touch the story lines my group had been working on - yep. I'm not sorry about it, but I also recognize that it makes me a snobby wench. What can I say? I was invested.

I think there isn't one reason SG is on its last leg. The reasons are myriad. Not one problem with one answer. I'd love to see it all leveled and character wiped, so we all as to start from zero. Would we just roll more of the same though? I tend to think so.

Some people call it pessimism, I call it realism:
_________________
I have a competition in me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe we have different definitions of social rp. Here is an example of what I think social rp is.

Mightywarrior476:*walks into tavern, orders a beer*

Kittycat5:*is a cat. hops into the lap of a sap, is now a cat in the lap of a sap* "meow?"

MightyWarrior476: "Why hello there kitty, want a beer?"

Kittycat5:*puuuurs, snuggle snuggles*

Mightywarrior476: *gives kitty a beer*

Kittycat5: *Is now dizzy cat! Falls off the lap of the sap*

Mightywarrior476: *Laughs at the silly kitty*

Betterthanyouelf: *Enters Tavern, orders wine*

Mightywarrior476: "Hello pointy ears, hows it going?"

BetterthanyouElf:"Well. I am drinking wine."

Mightywarrior476: "Good to hear, I am drinking beer"

BetterthanyouElf: *sips wine*

Mightywarrior476: *glugs beer*

BetterthanyouElf: *Sips more wine*

Mightywarrior476: *Chugs more beer*

Catattack56: *is a cat, rubs nose against elfies foot*

BetterthanyouElf: "greeting feline"

Pussypower69: *Is a cat, plays with yarn by the fireplace*

Mightywarrior476: *Looks around confused* "where are all these cats from?

Catmando: *Is a cat, rub rubs elfy*


MightyWarrior476: "And why are they all rubbing you?"

Garret: *Is a bunny, dressed as a cat, does cutestuff, away from MightyWarrior*

BetterthanyouElf: "As an elf in addition to my superiour health, longevity, magical inclinations, beauty and constitution. I also have a natural affinity for animals"

Kittycat5: *Drunkstumbles out of tavern, MightyWarrior476's money pouch in mouth*

MightyWarrior476: "Hey!That cat cat my money!" *draws sword, gets mobbed by kitties*

ChatDM: WILD COWS ARE ATTACKING! AND THEY HAVE LIGHTNING BREATH!

I seem to have got distracted mid example but yeah, to me social rp is just endlessly chugging alcohol and people playing as cats.
_________________
PM me in the forum here when you want me on to RP or dungeon dive. The forum will automatically notify me by e-mail. Then my e-mail will send me a text message. Then I will get on likely within minutes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Using the above example in my opinion, the social RPs purpose is to facilitate conflict and adventure. In the above example if it had been in line with my opinion on how rp should work, the cat that stole the wallet, would have been a druid with an army of cats as followers. And the purpose of the RP would not be so they can chug beer, pet kitties and crack wise its purpose is to get your wallet stolen by a cat. The purpose of the rp, all of them, whether they realize it at the time or not. would have been that wallet theft. That in my mind is the purpose of rp, a facilitator that allows for the story. Not the end goal itself.

In the above example if the social rp was in fact the goal, then he would just post chasing the cat, the cat would describe a series of comic obstacles, if the warriors player is cooperating then he fails to catch the thief cat, wanders back to the tavern. The elf cracks wise. And they spend the next hour rping *I increase my blood alcohol level now 700% beyond lethal range* and petting cats.
_________________
PM me in the forum here when you want me on to RP or dungeon dive. The forum will automatically notify me by e-mail. Then my e-mail will send me a text message. Then I will get on likely within minutes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also thinking about the post Brando made. I think I see a critical DMing error.

In a typical D&D campaign, you prepare an epic story filled with suspense, betrayel and deep questions, that question the nature ignorance.

You start it off in some ruins, the ruins arent important, whats important are the seemingly normal adventurers in them, who harbor a sark secret. You tell your players "The ruins are ancient but have been built with iron, magical and somehow still active runes keep the rust away. Here and there you magic circles carved into the walls, which are drawing in the ambient magical energy and releasing it in the firm of a bubble. When popped some of the bubbles release a pleasant melody. But most release only a painful shriek that deals 5 thunder damage to all adjacent."

There a nice bit of color to keep interesting, you think to yourself. But the players? They get fixated on the bubbles, who made them? And so after completing the dungeon, they ignore the hooks around the mysterious adventuring party. And instead head off to the nearest great library to find out about these ruins.

And as any DMG will tell you. This. Is. Good. Make a whole new history and story surrounding these bubbles and the civilization that made them. Reskin and repurpose what you already had prepared. Decide that the magical bubbles releasing the sound are doing more than that, they are releasing a twisted form of magical pollution that is slowing killing the planet. The party decides to go around finding all of these ruins and shutting them down. Repurpose your original badguys to have found out about these bubbles somehow and are in fact trying to accelerate their effect.

Likewise if you put out a hook and every post to you is like, "Im waiting to see how X turns out before I act" dont quit in frustration. Roll some dice and decide how X turns out.
_________________
PM me in the forum here when you want me on to RP or dungeon dive. The forum will automatically notify me by e-mail. Then my e-mail will send me a text message. Then I will get on likely within minutes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another thing, Yes its boring DMing for just one person. But, you are the DM. If you are running stuff for 3 different players, all doing their own thing. You have the power connect their actions so they end up doing the same thing.

If Verbannon is busy consolodating his power in Tempus's military intelligence, Aunuit is ordering the assassination one by one of Hound officers, and Raveena is trying to get her little pocket village of refugees finished. Connect them. Have some Hound Officers hide out in Raveenas village with a Tempusian Priest that turns out was taking bribes in order to turn a blind eye.

Boom now three players are all on the same plot.

Also no player wants to deal with NPC bad guys as the main villian. This is a social game after all.
_________________
PM me in the forum here when you want me on to RP or dungeon dive. The forum will automatically notify me by e-mail. Then my e-mail will send me a text message. Then I will get on likely within minutes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nienne
Immortal


Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 2653
Location: Aussieland

PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of these factors are already within our consideration as avatars when we're running a story. The only one that tends to be a little different is...

Quote:
Also no player wants to deal with NPC bad guys as the main villian. This is a social game after all.


While it certainly can be an option, we don't tend to put players at each others' throats as a rule; not everyone is heavily into PK and players usually find reasons of their own to kill each other. It can and does happen if players act accordingly (to speak first-hand, my Tharis plot was basically two player groups trying to counteract each other). But even in tabletop, it's usually the case of unravelling an adventure and dealing with said NPC bad guy/good guy/whoever, not fighting with other players. So this one definitely isn't a rule, more an occasional occurrence depending on the plot nature Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nienne wrote:
Most of these factors are already within our consideration as avatars when we're running a story. The only one that tends to be a little different is...

Quote:
Also no player wants to deal with NPC bad guys as the main villian. This is a social game after all.


While it certainly can be an option, we don't tend to put players at each others' throats as a rule; not everyone is heavily into PK and players usually find reasons of their own to kill each other. It can and does happen if players act accordingly (to speak first-hand, my Tharis plot was basically two player groups trying to counteract each other). But even in tabletop, it's usually the case of unravelling an adventure and dealing with said NPC bad guy/good guy/whoever, not fighting with other players. So this one definitely isn't a rule, more an occasional occurrence depending on the plot nature Smile


What if a player puts it in her notes that he is fine being put in adversarial plots with other players?
_________________
PM me in the forum here when you want me on to RP or dungeon dive. The forum will automatically notify me by e-mail. Then my e-mail will send me a text message. Then I will get on likely within minutes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nienne
Immortal


Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 2653
Location: Aussieland

PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That may help Smile I'm just careful as I know not everyone is comfortable with PK, and having imms shove it at you often isn't well taken! For those that are comfortable with it, I have no probs. And for major plot arcs that can potentially turn adversarial, I'll usually warn as much beforehand.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
tsera
Immortal


Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 134

PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah...I still come to read up on things as I have time, because despite it all, I will always care deeply about SG. With that said, I still maintain that new code will not fix the issue of low player base. Focus needs to be put on -finishing- and thoroughly testing old code BEFORE moving on to the next shiny new idea. We have a ton of code and ideas that are in half ass and not complete.

Secondly, I don't think the game needs to be easier. Faster leveling actually takes away from the game. It focuses on mechanics, which will never ever be shadowgates strong point. The mechanics for this game are just a frame, and a frame does not make a house a home. What makes a house a home is what you put into it, in this case the RP and stories.

The longer you take to build up a story, the more attached you become to it. Hence the people that take their time on their characters and actually work on a good story are the ones most likely to stick around. In general, the life expectancy of any given character is about level 40, unless there is an awesome story that people are attached to.

I think also, that instead of bashing on one another, the group as a whole, players and immortals alike, need to work together. There's only a handful of you left and it seems that the separation now is worse than it ever has been.

Being an immortal sucks. It is a thankless job. You are constantly trying to help players and be fair, while still doing your 'job'. You are constantly watching for things that are not balanced or do not make sense. You often feel like a puppy chasing its own tail, and you hear all the whining in the world. You hear about all the wrong things people do, and even sometimes have to diffuse situations that you'd really rather not touch with a ten foot pole. You have to protect your other immortals and work as a team. You do not get to play a character for yourself, ever. You always play a supporting role to other characters/players. You fill in the gaps and you must always be mindful of what you can and cannot use IC. You always know so much more than your character can ever use. You run plots for players that bitch about everything that doesn't go exactly how they envision things turning out, and sometimes just get flat out ignored in your efforts to garner their attention. And all of this usually comes without even a thank you.

So please, love your imms. They definitely are not dedicating their time and effort for their own pleasure. Work with them, and if you feel that they weren't paying attention to a background, perhaps -constructively- bring that up.

And imms- focus on clean up and tightening existing code. Perhaps work together to focus on making the story of sg continue.. Make the world alive again. Smile

If I had time, I would honesty come back just to play for ME for once, and bulk up the player base. It's amazing how time you don't have when RL takes a sudden, horrific, and unexpected turn.

Not having to be upstairs is actually a huge burden off of my back. God knows I was trying to recruit imms to be active and take over so that I could walk away for a very long time.. I hope you stick around this time, Saide. I think you guys can do an awesome job at making this game great again...

Love and miss you all. Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
saide
Immortal


Joined: 18 Mar 2007
Posts: 381

PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel like I should make a few clarifications. First off, I am not a LAW immortal. I appreciate the thought though, but so far it has not been in my Shadowgate destiny (is that such a thing?)

On game difficulty – it is not about making the game inherently easier. If we look at how people leveled when auto tax was around there were people who had a lot of time to play, who just stayed logged in, and sometimes they roleplayed and other times they did not. Basically they eventually beat the tax – maybe some of those people who beat the tax were good at roleplay and were rewarded for it. I know that certainly not all of them did or anyone who spent time enough on the game to bypass or take advantage of the auto tax would have been a high mortal. That is not the case.

My concern back then was that everyone who logs into SG has a life beyond it, whether or not they live in a basement and collect fingernail clippings – well, that’s another story and not my place to judge. So we wanted the game more accessible to everyone. If you could only play for 2 hours a week then you should not feel like the game is basically fighting mechanically against you. I believe that removing auto tax and letting people who could only play a little be able to play during that little amount of time, however they saw fit, is a good thing for the game. Otherwise we end up with only people who have an excess of time being able to enjoy the game.

With the recent changes to death. I would say that the majority of us reading this post got so used to the way that SG death worked, that we just went with it, suffered the setbacks. A lot of us compensated the way that we played the game so that death was rarely ever experienced – which meant that without groups to play with a lot of us just did not go to most places. We stuck to areas where we knew we would likely not die.

Furthermore, a new player (if we get any of those) is forced to learn to deal with the penalty the same way that we were. The worst part of this being that if you are new and do not know the game, or even are just a new character without allies/resources then dying in an area where it is not possible to retrieve your gear is a tremendous set back. You end up feeling as if your time was wasted and struggle to figure out where to start. I have did this many times and have felt like my time was wasted. I do not believe that I am the only one who has felt that way.

So now death is still punitive – not in the way that it was before – you still have the gear and the experience you gained – except you gain future experience slower for a while and your gear is damage – you can still use it – but now you get to figure out if you want to replace pieces of it (particularly shifter gear – which is effectively now a long term consumable) or if you want to spend gold (which can be a lot of gold) on repairing it.

Feats and stats still cost experience but just in a different way than before – you are effectively taking out a loan on them. I do not think that either change makes the game easier because previously the people who knew the areas of the game well could just simply cycle them in order to gain any lost experience back – a lot of them did this rather quickly. I think the changes level the playing field for people who did not understand the mechanics as well or who are new to the game. Though they also create a gold sink – which is hopefully good for SG’s economy in the long term.

I also want to say that I know mechanics are not going to bring people to SG. However, hopefully the people who spend time on SG will find the mechanics less of a hindrance to what the game has to offer and hopefully they will be more transparent so not just the elitist understand them and can advantage.

This does not mean that we are going to ignore them or quit trying to make them easier to understand, more transparent, and less punishing. We are not Dead Souls any more than we are Diablo.

Also, we do have a lot of code that needs fixed up. A lot of our objects (including players) could be more efficient. This will take time. Also, a lot of our areas need updated. We are aware of all of this. We are also working, behind the scenes, to make changes. I’ve personally been trying to make player objects more efficient, it is a slow and tedious process.

Areas are going to take some time and during that time we are also going to be living our lives off the game, working on other code in the game, and some of us might even play characters. We might be “immortals” on the game but sadly we are not offline – so behind the keyboard is a person who must weigh decisions and sometimes will make mistakes or make game changes slower than what would be ideal in a perfect world.

We are likely not going to make a list of every single thing that we are working on – though we do strive to let you guys know ahead of time about major game mechanic changes – and we do enjoy it when we make new stuff for people to enjoy – it is just more of a burden to post everything that we could potentially do and/or are working on.

Last, it is a thankless job being up here. Whenever anything is changed then someone has a hard time accepting it – I understand that humans do not like change very well and some of them have a harder time adapting to it than others. As an avatar it is even worse because a lot of our players have a tendency to react poorly to anything that is different from what they think it should be (maybe this goes along with the idea of people not liking change?). Furthermore, avatars are so limited in what they are capable of doing – it is a CHORE to make an item as an avatar to give to a player and a lot of players do not appreciate the effort anyway – it has always been that way.

I personally do not hold any of that against players. If I were playing a game (and not coding on it) and someone changed how the mechanics of that game affected my character I would probably have a hard time accepting it too – at least at first. If I were rewarded with an item that was the same as any other item I could get – I would want more too - it’s human nature to want to win or at least be badass – at least for the majority of people.

My point in all of this is that we understand things need fixed mechanically and we also understand that better mechanics are not going to bring players back. We understand that you guys want stories. We offer them in the form of new areas/adventures, but we cannot force you to live them or to create your own – that has to be something you do. We can only help to facilitate them with mechanics that are more fair to everyone (even the guy who only plays two hours per week) and through interactions via avatars or coders who enjoy running them.

We are also one team. It is not immortals versus players. I understand that sometimes it might feel that way and that we (as immortals) have at times made that seem like the reality of SG, but it is not what we want going forward. We are working with the limited resources that we have to make SG better overall for everyone who might choose to play. Maybe you guys can play and try to create some of those stories that you want – we will be in the background helping out – sometimes (or perhaps mostly) quietly.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tsera
Immortal


Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 134

PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know your heart is in the right place.

A new area though, only adds to the story the time it takes to get through an area. "Oh hey, I killed Vecna!" Is a great story until everybody knows that Vecna is still kickin' it stop the tower as always.

But, if on your way to kill Vecna let's say, you are overcome by a horde of wraiths who spirit you away to the lands the tower overlooks in an effort to use you as a summoning tool that will summon something that can destroy the world, causing other players to band together to save you in the nick of time... You get a real story for everybody involved... And an interest in doing something other than grinding because what you do is actually meaningful to the ongoing SG story.

Getting 2 mil xp in 45 minutes isn't meaningful, and that is definitely not the code holding you back. (And yes, it is absolutely possible to do that in that time frame)

I think that it is definitely time that holds people back, but not in the way you think. I don't think people care about levels or power, they care about doing something meaningful. Grinding xp is boring. Logging in to see four other people on, who refuse to RP is also boring. Making up a story on your own that places your character in a meaningful position is not a good idea, as getting there should be RP'd out under the guidance of an imm that can roll reactions.

My honest suggestion would be to start with an announcement that on blah day, from time a to time b, a real dm'd campaigne will be run weekly in our setting. People can play and talk about it and level between, but I'd be willing to bet that if something like that was done, and was consistent.. You'd get a ton of players on. (You'd have to make it clear that the players don't make progress on that particular plot in between, to make it fair for those that play 24/7, and those that don't- and explain that IC... Like the gates to that level of hell only open once in a blue moon, or something equally as cheesy Razz). Oh... And campaigne x is only open to levels y-z to keep people from leveling for an advantage. If you level out of range... You have to go to another campaign slot

It seems there is always an uptick in players when there are plots, but as soon as the plots die down, so does the player base.

Anyway.. My two cents. I'm likely to disappear completely again for another few weeks, but do wish you the best of luck!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nienne wrote:
That may help Smile I'm just careful as I know not everyone is comfortable with PK, and having imms shove it at you often isn't well taken! For those that are comfortable with it, I have no probs. And for major plot arcs that can potentially turn adversarial, I'll usually warn as much beforehand.


I should probably get clarification. The example I gave, would you consider that creating a pk conflict situation?
_________________
PM me in the forum here when you want me on to RP or dungeon dive. The forum will automatically notify me by e-mail. Then my e-mail will send me a text message. Then I will get on likely within minutes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
myrkul



Joined: 19 Dec 2009
Posts: 279

PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Verbannon wrote:
What if a player puts it in her notes that he is fine being put in adversarial plots with other players?


N is right! Smile I've tried pitting 2 players from 2 hated enemy dieties against each other. They both got super pissed! You'd think it would be reasonable from the 10,000 foot view, but the up close view is that many players are very protective of their PC's prerogatives to choose direction.

To do an epic PK plot, it really takes a lot of trust between players and trust with the imm running the plot. Trust that the other player won't be a jerk, trust that the imm will be fair, that the plot will be fair, or even if the plot isn't fair, trust that the plot will be awesome and that there will be fun & potentially rewards for great RP. That's a lot of trust Smile

A better way to do it in my opinion is to open the door to a potentially awesome PK plot, and let the players decide to step through that door. Frankly, most don't. It's scary! Really!

(ok some of us still have PTSD from stabbage in the dark time before the dawn of RP Smile )
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Shadowgate Forum Index -> General discussion All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 3 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group. Hosted by phpBB.BizHat.com