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Remove money bags and satchels from shifters, give to champs
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 385

PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bribes, mercenaries, paying informants, public acts of charity to get into a city's good graces. Ect. And all a good economy needs it to define what the average player in oncome should be and make it equitable to the average player expendenture.

Thing about rich players, players that put eftort into getting wealthy. Is that a,side effect of being rich is having nothing to spend your money on.
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cyric
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe none of those expenses are automatically priced. They're all ad-hoc charges created by an immortal and conveyed to you or your character, right?

Agree with your statement in wealthy characters, in order for there to be a functioning economy, there needs to be more things available for purchase than funds available to purchase them. That brings in elements of scarcity, exclusivity, and choices and sacrifices of where players allocate their limited resources. Probably Needs a large overhaul as I don't think there's a silver bullet, happy to work with anyone willing to take it on.
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is the opposite of what I said. In order for there to be rich players the opposite must be true. And the nature of game economies is either constant unending inflation or wealth disparity. Because making more stuff to buy just means players will put in more time grinding.

Because ultimetely money is not a resource in a game. Time is. Money is just one of the ways to measure the time invested. And if there are more essentials than one can gather the money to pay for. Well thats even worse .Since it leaves the,playerbase in a downward spiral as they grow unable to afford to fight anything they cant kill while naked with their bare hands.
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cyric
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Verbannon wrote:
That is the opposite of what I said. In order for there to be rich players the opposite must be true. And the nature of game economies is either constant unending inflation or wealth disparity. Because making more stuff to buy just means players will put in more time grinding.

Because ultimetely money is not a resource in a game. Time is. Money is just one of the ways to measure the time invested. And if there are more essentials than one can gather the money to pay for. Well thats even worse .Since it leaves the,playerbase in a downward spiral as they grow unable to afford to fight anything they cant kill while naked with their bare hands.

an actual working game economy will allow some players to be wealthier than other players while simultaneously not restricting equipment to the point where newbies cannot use them.

I'm actually a bit insulted that you think o would come up with an economy which would reduce players to fighting with their bare hands.
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Verbannon



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My point is that unless you break the economy you will always have some players that have bought everything. All you can do is determine how much time it takes them to reach that point. And the most broken thing about shadowgate's economy right now are the shifter bags. Remove them and you will have the same impact as a new sink worth millions. You cant do anything until they are removed because until then you cant estimate what a reasonable rate of gold accumalation is and balance accordingly.
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cyric
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Verbannon wrote:
My point is that unless you break the economy you will always have some players that have bought everything. All you can do is determine how much time it takes them to reach that point. And the most broken thing about shadowgate's economy right now are the shifter bags. Remove them and you will have the same impact as a new sink worth millions. You cant do anything until they are removed because until then you cant estimate what a reasonable rate of gold accumalation is and balance accordingly.

I fundamentally disagree with the inevitability of players buying everything. You absolutely can have an economy where players can buy anything but not everything.
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Verbannon



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cyric wrote:
Verbannon wrote:
My point is that unless you break the economy you will always have some players that have bought everything. All you can do is determine how much time it takes them to reach that point. And the most broken thing about shadowgate's economy right now are the shifter bags. Remove them and you will have the same impact as a new sink worth millions. You cant do anything until they are removed because until then you cant estimate what a reasonable rate of gold accumalation is and balance accordingly.

I fundamentally disagree with the inevitability of players buying everything. You absolutely can have an economy where players can buy anything but not everything.


Okay maybe it is 'possible' but in a game like Shadowgate, the options are limited. And most every option would require a lot of coding. You cant put in much in the way of sinks like equipment repair. That leads to bare hands I was talking about. You cant put in too many direct upgrades, (hence forth referred to as hard power) that wrecks balance. With hard power purchases everything has to be carefully measured and you can easily make the upgrades mandatory resulting in the bare hands problem in principle.

So your options are diversions, soft power and Aestetics. Aestetics are pretty much limited to player houses, and in a roleplaying game like shadowgate generally double as a form of soft power. However as relying on builders for that is impractical, a player usable house editor would have to be programmed to allow players to spend and build and expand as desired. Which is a small mud's worth of code on its own.

Soft Power, currently existing mostly in temple upgrades (same builder problem) and in paying for advantages in plots. If you want to avoid the ad hock pricing would require a system built in the background, both coded structure and documentation to facilitate it. This is practicalish as a guild system and faction system are both already on the way. But as you can see, what seems to be a basic factions system is already a massive long term project for Nienne. And building a supporting structure for the facilitation of soft power is probably virtually impossible.

That leaves diversions like the horse races. Thats your likliest bet, more of those, better structured systems ect. But loki never even finished the horse races. Evidencing that such are big projects. And they'll have to be tieable in to plots and politics for long term interest increasing the size of the projects.

But to obtain the fully fuctional economy will likely require all three. And thats an IMPOSSIBLE amount of coding. A magic item creation system has taken ten years. If you want a fully functioning economy you probably will not see it in your lifetime.
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Verbannon



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats why lately Ive only been making suggestions that require little to no coding. Removing bags from shifters requires changing one line of code in the bag and satchel objects. They probably have a line that says "drop on death: True" and they just need to change it to false. A simple change that improves the game.
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cyric
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don't think it will be that difficult. You have to collect the right data and have self correcting mechanisms in place as the base. Then you can add on additional features bit by bit.

Code to create magic weapons has been in place for over 15 years. Balancing the weapons and armor characters make is the tough part. Honestly I'm not sure how it's possible with a shifting target (available armor and weapons improve over time).
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Verbannon



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If they are having that much trouble with Balance than someone screwed the pooch big time when setting the standards. ... No its impossible to have that much trouble balancing unless they are like deadlocked in disagreement over what the standard should be. So I dont believe that.

The problem has to be in the coding. Thats the only thing that justifies the time it takes for various project completion. And that means it would take decades, centuries even to fix the economy.
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Verbannon



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just forget about anything that requires coding. All coded projects are long term and suggesting more coding projects is futile. The only potentially effective suggestions are suggestions that use existing systems and mechanics.
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cyric
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Verbannon wrote:
If they are having that much trouble with Balance than someone screwed the pooch big time when setting the standards. ... No its impossible to have that much trouble balancing unless they are like deadlocked in disagreement over what the standard should be. So I dont believe that.

The problem has to be in the coding. Thats the only thing that justifies the time it takes for various project completion. And that means it would take decades, centuries even to fix the economy.


I'm pretty confident I've created both mundane and magic weapons and armor without any coding privileges. The same (or similar) avatar code could be repurposed for players. The difficulty will be in balancing (as it always is) because balance is a moving target with lots of variables. There are at least six I can think of off the top of my head (weight, base damage, ac, magic resist, miss chance, attack bonus, damage resistance, special frequency, special damage, body slot, armor/weapon type). How do you code how any of them interact and stack up with each other, in a way that's fair to players who don't have access to customized gear? Not easy.

Economy is much simpler because there's only one real metric: amount of gold in the hands of active players. It also has less of a balance impact because if you screw up and someone racks up a couple million gold it has less Of an effect than someone who figures out how to get a +65 ac or damage item.

As for "Someone" screwing the pooch, who specifically are you referring to, out of the dozens of coders and avatars and HMs who have been involved in balance discussions and testing over the years? Certainly not you, I suppose, so who are you pointing that finger at?
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Verbannon



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cyric wrote:
Verbannon wrote:
If they are having that much trouble with Balance than someone screwed the pooch big time when setting the standards. ... No its impossible to have that much trouble balancing unless they are like deadlocked in disagreement over what the standard should be. So I dont believe that.

The problem has to be in the coding. Thats the only thing that justifies the time it takes for various project completion. And that means it would take decades, centuries even to fix the economy.


I'm pretty confident I've created both mundane and magic weapons and armor without any coding privileges. The same (or similar) avatar code could be repurposed for players. The difficulty will be in balancing (as it always is) because balance is a moving target with lots of variables. There are at least six I can think of off the top of my head (weight, base damage, ac, magic resist, miss chance, attack bonus, damage resistance, special frequency, special damage, body slot, armor/weapon type). How do you code how any of them interact and stack up with each other, in a way that's fair to players who don't have access to customized gear? Not easy.

Economy is much simpler because there's only one real metric: amount of gold in the hands of active players. It also has less of a balance impact because if you screw up and someone racks up a couple million gold it has less Of an effect than someone who figures out how to get a +65 ac or damage item.

As for "Someone" screwing the pooch, who specifically are you referring to, out of the dozens of coders and avatars and HMs who have been involved in balance discussions and testing over the years? Certainly not you, I suppose, so who are you pointing that finger at?


I meant that Balance is simple. And there shouldnt be a moving target. The existence of a moving target where balanced is concerned means that there is a serious error occuring.

Because once a standard is settled o n thats it, there should be no more movement. And Nienne told me there is a standard and has been for years. So if they have a moving target it means someone is ignoring the standard and screwing things up for everyone.

But I dont think thats what has happened. My point is that if you are right and the problem is balancing not coding then the pooch was screwed.

But if Im right and the problem is the code then the pooch isnt screwed.

Now there is a third option that has nothing to do with balance or coding and thats economical impact. In other words, figuring out how to release the system and not have it render items looted in dungeons practically worthless.

In which case I just need a diffeeent exampld of a coding project.
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought about it and realized there is at least a 60% chance I am the one in error here. Ive been using an extrenely narrow definition of balance. But if I were to broaden that definition just a bit, then I could yes see how it could take a,while. Though in this case less about time taking to build, more like making the rest of the game right to put it in.

But admitting myself wrong here simply means my example is refuted. not my point.
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Verbannon



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My point being it would be too time consuming and labor intensive for the imms, requiring dozens of disparate projects. So that a balanced economy is unreasonable. And its better to settle for removing bags and satchels from shifters, so getting rich at least requires some effort.
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