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Roleplay
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats not a counter argument to what I said. If you dont discuss and explain personally that their reason is not good enough before administering punishment. Then the player will feel unjustly singled out.

And possibly even more important, one of the most Critical jobs of a DM at the beginning of a campaign (Or in this case, a new character) is to learn and understand their player's desired character concept and work with them to adjust it to fit the setting.

Failure to do so is as much bad DMing as the players are bad RPing. And as an added bonus, doing so makes the DM's job much easier down the line for like four different reasons.
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ViolaRose



Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those were my thoughts in general, and not a counter-argument to you specifically. But... what DMs do you speak of?

The imms no longer believe in telling people how they should or shouldn't play their characters, which is why this is a plea for anyone interested in roleplaying to simply hold themselves accountable for their own roleplay.
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beshaba



Joined: 02 Aug 2011
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Verbannon wrote:

And possibly even more important, one of the most Critical jobs of a DM at the beginning of a campaign (Or in this case, a new character) is to learn and understand their player's desired character concept and work with them to adjust it to fit the setting.

Failure to do so is as much bad DMing as the players are bad RPing. And as an added bonus, doing so makes the DM's job much easier down the line for like four different reasons.


Even if you're not familiar with D&D, there is a help file for each race that gives you a synopsis of what is expected. At that point, it is not the DM/SGCode's job to fit your character concept within the realm. It is the RP player's responsibility. Not every player's concept WILL fit within SG. And this isn't a tabletop game where the DM can make exceptions to their game world for the sake of one of their players desires on the fly.
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Uriel



Joined: 09 Dec 2013
Posts: 75
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Verbannon wrote:

And possibly even more important, one of the most Critical jobs of a DM at the beginning of a campaign (Or in this case, a new character) is to learn and understand their player's desired character concept and work with them to adjust it to fit the setting.

Failure to do so is as much bad DMing as the players are bad RPing. And as an added bonus, doing so makes the DM's job much easier down the line for like four different reasons.


Kinda disagree here, Verbannon. The DM's job is to tell a story, follow the setting, allow players to make decisions and provide consequences.

DM's can accommodate a PC a bit, but in a game where there are many players, we have to have a common understanding of the setting. So it can never be about just 1 player's PC. Not even the Av gets 100% say on what the setting is Smile So be kind, we all give something up and we all get something in return Smile

The question is how can all have fun and work together to create an interesting story that we all enjoy!
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are far more obstacles, especially to new players, triply so if they are new to RP than you are accounting for. And if they are used to later editions of D&D like 5e or god forbid, 4e then you'll haveca substantial shock. The existing help files are so far from adequate its not funny.

And it is a DM's job. Or in rare cases,a DM might, as the books say, "set a new player in between the rules lawyer and the Storyteller so they can teach them all the workings of the game and setting freeing up your time."

Lets just take a simple example. Player makes an elf, good aligned. And wants his elf to be genuinely good. He makes his elf a cleric of helm because she envisioms a simple concept. Elf is chosen because she reflexively tries to avoid the super generic human. His elf then is planned to be a protecter guided by centuries of carefully gathered wisdom, and understands the true value of life ect.

Before even getting into active roleplay this concept is not in keeping with Shadowgate, but there really is no way for the player to realize this.Characters should always start out inexperienced so its the game not their background that ultimately shapes them, and Elves generally should be insular and not give a crap about protecting anything except elves.

And once in active roleplay, the player's elf meets a Drow, starts,out untrusting and all, but when the Drow doesnt immedietely start bathing in the blood if the innocent, decides the good alignned thing would be to give the Drow the benefit of the doubt.Rather than being a racist.

So now an Avatar sees this and has the Elves start treating her as an enemy for the Drow and a traitor for not focusing wholly on protecting the elves, npc clerics of his faith start deriding him both for not smiting that Drow on sight and also for being a selfish elf, and everybody treats his character like an inexperienced child even though he selected middle aged.

Now the player, either doubles down, not getting the point and decides he is a Matyr for true good. Or gets oocly upset as everything goes wrong, she doesnt know why and he is sure its unfair because he had no way of knowing. And leaves Shadowgate.

Now maybe you feel that was a thin skinned reaction and good riddance. But if you do, thats an a-hole reaction. What you should have done is the following.

As soon as you see the bad RP, talk to the player, explain that the racial emnity between Drow and Elves is powerful and should not be dismissed except under extraordinary circumstance, the kind that can only occur during game play and not in the back ground . Which his character doesnt qualify. That Elves are insular and dont see much point in spending their energies protecting the short lived races without either extraordinary conviction, possibly something backgroundable, but if so should be a major part of the background to explain why they have this conviction or as part of youthful idealism. And that any character starting out, is just that, starting out. A middle aged elf for instance would mean a character that has spent centuries at non adventuring activities, like meditating the meaning of life or something.And would require an unusual event to spur this new life. And it would be a new life. Since you are required to play your level.

And then the Avatar could listen to the player put forth alternative ideas and pitch a,few suggestions of its own. And in the end one is settled upon.

And in this way the player's character is brought in line, the player isnt frustrated and turned away by being punished for her ignorance. And the Avatar isn't sitting behind the scenes fuming over this player's percieved disrespect to the game.

If you dont want to do it yourself, post trouble players on the HM boards so we can talk to them before you drive away another player
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beshaba



Joined: 02 Aug 2011
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Verbannon wrote:

Rather than being a racist.


First of all, being a racist in fantasy is not inherently evil. Unlike our world, there are legitimate reasons to hate various races without the need to "give them all a chance", even for Good characters.

Secondly, this is not a tabletop environment. You can say the DM should do this or that, but most times we are left with help files and hard-coded limits (such as elves can't be rolled as evil). The help files on the races are basic, but they cover the major points. Now it's possible to correct people through RP, and I would prefer that... but my post was originally about the responsibility of people who want to RP to do their research, and to take matters into consideration. If you want to play a special snowflake that spurns all conventions, then you better put in the legwork and MAKE that story. Simply deciding to cast aside generations of conventional wisdom after a couple minutes of debate does not represent roleplay.
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

beshaba wrote:
Verbannon wrote:

Rather than being a racist.


First of all, being a racist in fantasy is not inherently evil. Unlike our world, there are legitimate reasons to hate various races without the need to "give them all a chance", even for Good characters.

Secondly, this is not a tabletop environment. You can say the DM should do this or that, but most times we are left with help files and hard-coded limits (such as elves can't be rolled as evil). The help files on the races are basic, but they cover the major points. Now it's possible to correct people through RP, and I would prefer that... but my post was originally about the responsibility of people who want to RP to do their research, and to take matters into consideration. If you want to play a special snowflake that spurns all conventions, then you better put in the legwork and MAKE that story. Simply deciding to cast aside generations of conventional wisdom after a couple minutes of debate does not represent roleplay.


Considering Im talking about the reasonable perspective of a new player. Whether or not racism is actually evil in Shadosgate is irrelevant.

And the rest of your post seems to just be a reaffirmation of your original post. The parts that aren't I am unable to determine the meaning they are trying to convey. Please expand and or reword sentences 1 and 2.

Your statement that your preference is to correct through RP, simply declares your preference and is not an evaluation of the practicallity, success rate or potential consequences. Nor does it offer methods or refutations of the points I made.

I will agree that in same cases, Roleplay may be able to correct RP. However my opinion is that in most cases it will be insufficient at the least and likely even add to player turnover
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beshaba



Joined: 02 Aug 2011
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you think discussing it with a player is the way to go, how did that go when you were approached with your current character? You complained about it at length over the lines and then promptly ignored everything. And still, you're missing my point.

If you want to RP, then do it properly. The help files are there as well as ooc/newbie lines if people need help or clarification.
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With my character I recall three particular instances of imms talking to me. First was a message to me that read like a pre-written standardized thing, and I couldnt get any replies on it regarding practical application. Second was,a suggestion I delete my character and start over. And the other two was really an unending cycle of suggestions for me to start my own plot and not do my own plot but suppport someone's else.

Ultimately only Alzar, Belendithas, Circe and Nienne ever actually tried to discuss and explain things to me.

And your point is... how do I word this. Its not wrong, but its in my opinion, insuffecient to address to RP problem.
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really cannot see myself ever refusing an attempt to help then complaining about it.
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a tone reset is needed now. Things,are getting personal now. And using me as an example cant work because I am not an unbiased example. I dont remember what you are referring to, but since I am not unbiased in relation to myself, from your perspective I could sound like I am lying, do remember it but am claiming I dont remember as an evasion.
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cyric
Immortal


Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 291
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, that escalated.

Here's how it should go IMO:
1. Ic interactions appropriate for the unorthodox situation the players are creating. I.e. Comments from other patrons of the bar, a band of rowdy humans enter and start being racist/aggressive towards the drow, etc. this should follow to its logical conclusion, whichever way the players go. Maybe they leave, maybe they slaughter everyone, and interactions continue from there.
2. Ooc discussion of what's appropriate or normal. Explanation that unorthodox rp will not be easy and whether this is the road the player really wants to follow. Listing of possible consequences ic so they're not a surprise later. (Bounties posted, rumors spread, ostracizing from organizations or cities, loss of spells, assassins, threats against family and allies, burglary, trumped up charges, etc.)
3. Follow through and make life difficult for them, reward them if he rp is good and they stay the course, but make them give something significant up.
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah what Cyric said. Immediate RP should of course be proper in relation to the act. But then there shouod be ooc discussion so the player has,a chance to change before anything major and irrevereable occurs.
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ViolaRose



Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well that would be wonderful! But, again, I'll reiterate that this is no longer the Shadowgate we once knew. It is no longer considered fashionable to tell anyone how they should be roleplaying. There are no avatars directing the cast, and believe me, the imms are well aware of the current state of characters. At best, I've been told to make a post voicing my complaints. Also, the characters currently in question will be the first ones to tell you that they're the exceptions of their races and religions, so it's no surprise to them. Carry on, kiddos.

Perhaps we can hope this post would at least encourage future players to consider their character choices.

So if everyone could just take a little bit of responsibility and read the help files, and understand the expectations and limitations of their race, religion, etc., that would be great!

Thanks Smile
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Ares
Immortal


Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 982

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:57 pm    Post subject: Roleplay Reply with quote

There's nothing wrong with you using IC means to persuade people to roleplay accordingly. If someone is doing something that would seem wrong in some way for the setting, then your character should act accordingly.
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