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beshaba



Joined: 02 Aug 2011
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, so we react IG and IC, but when the handful of people doing it are half the mud, it presents it as "normal" to any other new players. And then propagates until you may as well not have any standards in your setting at all.
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Ares
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Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 981

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reacting Reply with quote

We are not policing RP anymore, it's too corrosive to the staff. We already don't have any avatars, in part because of the morale hit that everybody takes when we try to tell them how to RP. I submit that it will be far more effective when players are encouraging each other to roleplay within the bounds of the game. And by encouraging, I tend to mean hitting repeatedly with some blunt or pointy object until they stop. Or if that's not your style, then annoying them with preachy talk until they give up. If that's not your style, then bribing somebody else to do one of the above things. And if that still doesn't work, you could try something drastic, like setting a better example that they want to emulate.
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ViolaRose



Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I've already tried a combination of 2/4. I guess it's time to get to multikilling til they come around! Laughing
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay how about a compromise. Let the imms who want to improve RP create their own private board to discuss problem players. As well as to decide on players who they see as good RPers. And add thise players to their private board. Then they can brainstorm and discuss potential actions they can take. Everything is better when not done unioaterally afterall.

For instance lets say there is a female goblin Sunite. When approached and asked to explain the justification for this character the response is "Oh well I thought it wouod be interesting, A goblin female, ugly and all, but worshipping the goddess of love and beauty. Struggling against the pressures of both her own society and the prejeduce of the greater world in a quest for love and acceptance!"

Imm: Okay... But you know Goblins are kleptomaniacs naturally inclined towards petty violence and petty well everything. They are basically a race of the worse frat boys. They spend their short lives competing endlessly for status by any measure they can. Hoarding trash they think is valuable, making risky and dangerous grabs for power, and each is a petty tyrant abusing any power they can get over others,no matter how small. You cant just you know, completely ignore their natures. You might be able to change one major trait or a couple minor ones, but not 'Everything'.

Player: "Oh okay, what if she is just obsessed with the idea of love, but is a goblin in all other respects?

Imm: Do you know what that might look like in RP?

Player: Sure,.

Imm: Okay another thing, female goblins dont really get to leave their villages. They are raped and kept pregnant their entire lives. They arent any less vicious then their male counterparts, but by being kept in a continual state of pregnancy they are easily kept subjugated. So your goblin needs a reason for her freedom.

Player: Her mother helped her escape?

Imm: A goblin Mother wouldnt care

Player: What if her village got destroyed and she was the only survivor.

Imm: You really want to go with something that tired

Player: "Its all I got"

Imm: *Sigh....* Fine. Whatever but please fix your character's personality.

(Two weeks later)

Imm: Your character hasnt changed.

Player: Well I have her hoarding pretty things.

Imm: Stealing them?

player: Maaaaaaybe?

Imm: *Sigh* Change 'more'

(Post on boards)

Imm: This goblin is continuing to act too ungoblinlike.She wants to play a female goblin obsessed with love, fine but her personality isnt the slightish bit goblin like.

And she has been Pked many times for being a goblin and has been thrown out of Sune's temple even more than that. Ideas how to improve this player?"

Imm 2: Hmm if only we fucking had something to offer them as incentive. Like I don't know. HM STATUS!

Imm 3: Not the place, we are,still trying to figure out some sort of alternative reward. Have patience.

Imm 2: Well HURRY IT UP! Why do we even bother with these until that happens.

Imm 3: Me hurry it up!? You're the one who took two weeks to respond when I asked where the files with the old recognition code was.

Imm 2: It was a stupid question. If you just looked in the damn file directry you would have seen it in ten seconds.

*Imm 2,and 3 continue bickering*

Respected Player: Well maybe she doesnt really know how. Many we could give her examples of what good goblin RP is?

Imm: Great idea! Anybody know what that is?

Respected Player 2: Pking? All the good goblins I knew were just made to PK.

Respected player 3: Well Im sure if we think about it we can come up with examples. Problem is nobody really has experience with goblins.

Respected Player: Good point, so should we mail her seperately?

Imm: No, its a good idea but we dont want to spam her. Give me the examples and Ill pass them forward.

Everyone Choruses: Okay!

*Everyone hugs*

Imm: *Shows example of goblin RP to player*

Player: " Oh wow! This is so helpful and its already given me ideas. But it would require a pretty steep change to how she has been so far. I dont really want to have to deal with all the "So you show your true colors Goblin!" RP. Trying to explain the change ICly seems just exhausting.

Imm: "Well if you can pull off a better Goblin, just to show you I am a reasonable person, Ill put in a note that the world should act like this is how you've always been. I cant do anything about the players however. Maybe you shiuld mail them and ask for understanding yourself?

Player: Oh cool thanks!

***

(A week later)

Imm: Wow this is much better! Here have an Avatar item just as a recognition of your improvement. Now there are a few things left you can still improve...

AND SO THEY LIVED HAPPILY EVER AFTER.


And thats my exampke of a potential compromise where no hard enfircement is done but attempts are still consistently made to help players improve.
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cyric
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Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 291
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ViolaRose wrote:
Well that would be wonderful! But, again, I'll reiterate that this is no longer the Shadowgate we once knew. It is no longer considered fashionable to tell anyone how they should be roleplaying. There are no avatars directing the cast, and believe me, the imms are well aware of the current state of characters. At best, I've been told to make a post voicing my complaints. Also, the characters currently in question will be the first ones to tell you that they're the exceptions of their races and religions, so it's no surprise to them. Carry on, kiddos.

Perhaps we can hope this post would at least encourage future players to consider their character choices.

So if everyone could just take a little bit of responsibility and read the help files, and understand the expectations and limitations of their race, religion, etc., that would be great!

Thanks Smile


Pkilling them until they changed their ways always worked in the past.Smile
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Nienne
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Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 2653
Location: Aussieland

PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Verbannon wrote:
Okay how about a compromise. Let the imms who want to improve RP create their own private board to discuss problem players. As well as to decide on players who they see as good RPers.


Honestly, the amount of paperwork we already handle upstairs on a volunteer staff with lives outside the game... I don't see this getting anywhere real fast. We all already have years worth of backlog on various tasks and constant requests on a daily basis. This is, in part, why we stopped policing and are trying to cut down on paperwork from all sides - it contributes more than anything to burn-out.
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats why I specified imms who still want to. Like say Besheba, I assume she is an imm or an Avatar at least. Since she has one of the god names.
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Nienne
Immortal


Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 2653
Location: Aussieland

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bess isn't an active avatar, hasn't been in a while - to save confusion I've deactivated all non-active imm accounts on here so you will know if an immortal name posts on here, they are at least somewhat active & can potentially deal with things for you and/or speak directly on our behalf. Hopefully makes things a bit clearer going forward Smile
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, well then my suggestion is for any future imms who get upset at the poor RP quality.
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Uriel



Joined: 09 Dec 2013
Posts: 74
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Verbannon wrote:
Oh, well then my suggestion is for any future imms who get upset at the poor RP quality.


This conversation in a nutshell is: Why won't you let me play against type?

I get it. I love to play against type. Goodly goblins, evil elves, cursed paladins, etc. So does everyone else! Why? Because the conflict that makes a character interesting is external and obvious. And who doesn't like Drizzt books Wink It is harder work to make an interesting PC that is vanilla -- playing with type.

Your goblin obsessed with love example - why couldn't you do that with a human? Maybe it is less interesting as a human? Why? Can the idea stand on its own as interesting or do you need it to be a goblin?

The PC's _I liked best_ were the ones that played against type... But the ones _other players liked best_ were the ones that played with type Smile People love playing with well defined goodies and baddies.

I would suggest... think like an Imm Smile What kind of character would be the most fun for the most people?
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Nienne
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Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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Location: Aussieland

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uriel wrote:
And who doesn't like Drizzt books Wink


<<<
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Ares
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Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 981

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nienne wrote:
Uriel wrote:
And who doesn't like Drizzt books Wink


<<<


Not even the warlock with the flappy army that just wobbles around when he walks?
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uriel wrote:
Verbannon wrote:
Oh, well then my suggestion is for any future imms who get upset at the poor RP quality.


This conversation in a nutshell is: Why won't you let me play against type?

I get it. I love to play against type. Goodly goblins, evil elves, cursed paladins, etc. So does everyone else! Why? Because the conflict that makes a character interesting is external and obvious. And who doesn't like Drizzt books Wink It is harder work to make an interesting PC that is vanilla -- playing with type.

Your goblin obsessed with love example - why couldn't you do that with a human? Maybe it is less interesting as a human? Why? Can the idea stand on its own as interesting or do you need it to be a goblin?

The PC's _I liked best_ were the ones that played against type... But the ones _other players liked best_ were the ones that played with type Smile People love playing with well defined goodies and baddies.

I would suggest... think like an Imm Smile What kind of character would be the most fun for the most people?


Your post is very wrong. First part that is wrong. Your statement "Why won't you let me play against type" makes the assumed premise that the goal is to play against type. That is an incorrect premise.

Okay I am not going to start with story and character writing basics I will assume you know what those are.

The races in D&D serve the players as acting as an easy way to create a fully fleshed character. Each race in D&D can be likened unto an archetype, with their own culture, usual demeanor ect being premade and pre written for the players. However like when using an archetype, to get a complex 3d character one cannot simply stay with the archetype. Otherwise you get the generic dwarf problem. Where every single dwarf in every single story and book seems pretty much identical. (D&D wrote a book called the complete book of dwarves to solve just this problem. Its pretty cool.)

Now each archetype(race) has a number of assumptions associated with the race. You have the Primary, secondary and tertiary assumptions.

The Primary assumptions are the things that are most essential to defining the race and exceptions are rare if at all. The secondary assumptions are things that are usually associated with the race but are sometimes excepted. And tertiary things that are simply associated with the racial archetypes but are completely optional. (If the race is an archetype then the racial archetypes are sub-archetypes)

To use Goblins as an example

The Primary assumptions would be off the top of my head.



1. Goblins live short lives.
2. Goblins are selfish
3. Goblins are impatient
5. Goblins are violent.
6. Goblins are greedy
7. Goblins are patriarchal.


Secondary assumption would be
1. Goblins are Competitive
2. Goblins are cowardly
3. Goblins are primitive
4. Goblins are dim-witted
5. Goblins are numerous
6. Goblins are hierarchical
7. Goblins are immature
Tertiary assumptions would be
1. Goblins talk like idiots.
2. Goblins are cannibals.
3. Goblins are religious.


And thats it for goblins, a tertiary for a dwarf would be like
1. Dwarves are alcoholics and use hammers.

so you know what I mean.

Now there is often a lot of variety and give within the assumptions you can do yes.

Primary assumptions are generally sancrosanct. To change just one of them like say to have a goblin that was surprisingly patient, is so huge, you pretty much can't change anything else without it becoming basically a different race.

But secondary assumptions are what you play with to get character complexity. Any character should have most of them, but its common enough not to have all of them.

The archetypical goblin villain is a charismatic (to goblins) young goblin looking for a fast way to the top. Really fast. Since short lives and no patience. So he quickly makes a deal with some evil power or sends goblins to recover some dangerous forbidden artifact he doesn't understand. Regardless he thinks he found a way to quickpower and goes after it recklessly. Usually ending in he and his goblins releasing some super monster or being mutated into higher level monsters.

This archetype has all the primaries but does not have the secondary of dim-witted and usually not primitive.

And there are two archytypical goblin adventurers.

The first is pretty much the same thing as the villian minus the charisma, this goblin goes it alone seeking out power. So all the primaries again but this time no secondary of cowardly.

The second archetype is a goblin that was so weak or maybe just made someone very strong mad so he had to leave his goblin tribe or die. This goblin is cowardly, struggles to survive and attaches himself to anyone strong that seems like they won't kill him out of hand. This is the only goblin archetype that uses all the secondary assumptions.

Now a love obsessed Goblin does not need to drop any of the primaries to exist. How the goblin learned about love will probably need some changing of the secondaries. Especially a female goblin. Maybe she watched some prisoners profess their love and devotion to each other before they were tortured and killed for sport, and she noticed they seemed somehow happy in spite of it.

Being selfish and greedy obviously she'll want this happiness for herself, being impatient she will try to run away at first opportunity to find this love. Because of the patriarchy maybe she forces an abortion when no one is paying attention to a fat pregnant goblin female, fakes remaining pregnant until she recovers and escapes. And violence is easy to maintain. So all the primaries are met but secondaries that have to be ignored for this are cowardly and dimwitted. Which means every other secondary has to be stuck to to make it work.

So as you can see its very possible to make this character without having to go against type, though I'll point out it requires the goblin not give or show love and really not even understand what love is. So the post is really "How do we keep players within an acceptable range of type."

Which is quite literally the opposite of what you claim.
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Nienne
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Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 2653
Location: Aussieland

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ares wrote:
Nienne wrote:
Uriel wrote:
And who doesn't like Drizzt books Wink


<<<


Not even the warlock with the flappy army that just wobbles around when he walks?


Clearly I didn't get that far. Couldn't handle the delicious dessert-themed swords.
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Uriel



Joined: 09 Dec 2013
Posts: 74
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Verbannon wrote:

Now each archetype(race) has a number of assumptions associated with the race.


I see that we are in violent agreement Smile

In SG, goblins are evil. This is the archetype. If you decide you do not want to play an evil goblin, you are playing against type. That's okay. As a player, I enjoyed the hell out of my characters that played against type. But my PC's that everyone liked better were the ones that followed type.

I'm not going to tell you what to play, but I'd just ask that you think about what you want to play and why.
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