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Uriel



Joined: 09 Dec 2013
Posts: 58
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nienne wrote:
Uriel wrote:
And who doesn't like Drizzt books Wink


<<<


Ahahaha, Sorry Liche Smile
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cyric
Immortal


Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 291
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nienne wrote:
Ares wrote:
Nienne wrote:
Uriel wrote:
And who doesn't like Drizzt books Wink


<<<


Not even the warlock with the flappy army that just wobbles around when he walks?


Clearly I didn't get that far. Couldn't handle the delicious dessert-themed swords.

The first 8 books were good (despite streams of silver being a blatant ripoff of the hobbit). After siege of darkness, Salvatore's clearly been phoning it in, and just milking the cash cow. For like 20 years.
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 385

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uriel wrote:
Verbannon wrote:

Now each archetype(race) has a number of assumptions associated with the race.


I see that we are in violent agreement Smile

In SG, goblins are evil. This is the archetype. If you decide you do not want to play an evil goblin, you are playing against type. That's okay. As a player, I enjoyed the hell out of my characters that played against type. But my PC's that everyone liked better were the ones that followed type.

I'm not going to tell you what to play, but I'd just ask that you think about what you want to play and why.


So you ignore my post and instead just reassert your declaration unsupported. So many things wrong like Evil isnt even accurate because that leaves room for the wrong kind of evil. A patient mastermind goblin is just as against type as any good goblin.

And by simplifying it to just say 'against type' you are misrepresenting someone's argument so as to make them appear to be arguing just to want to play the race as the antithesis of their archetype.
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cyric
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Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 291
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Verbannon, what exactly is your goal here?
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 385

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cyric wrote:
Verbannon, what exactly is your goal here?
I'm not sure I understand the question.You mean with my last post? Well although I wasn't absolutely sure what Uriel's post meant, I could come up with only a few possibilities.

A. Uriel supports single archetype play, with no deviations even of the secondary characteristics. E.G. every goblin has to be cowardly. And is using passive aggression to mock everyone who believes differently. And simplification to misrepresent those who believe in allowing small changes as being for anything goes.

B. Uriel thinks the only aspect to consider when playing a race is alignment. So as long as the alignment is correct, no other aspect matters.

C. Uriel actually isn't contradicting any of my opinions but is saying it in such a simplified way that it looks like it.

Now unsure of which of these is correct I chose to try to just address all of the possibilities at once.
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 385

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are asking what my goal with this thread in general is now, none I suppose. I'm just reacting at this point.
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Uriel



Joined: 09 Dec 2013
Posts: 58
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Verbannon wrote:

So you ignore my post and instead just reassert your declaration unsupported. So many things wrong like Evil isnt even accurate because that leaves room for the wrong kind of evil. A patient mastermind goblin is just as against type as any good goblin.


Part of the premise of D&D (and SG!) is that evil is real and physical. There are creatures, like demons and devils, that are actually evil. It's not just that there are evil actions, but certain creatures are evil by their very existence. This is fundamental in a way that personality traits like patience, scheming, etc are not.

Goblins, drow, bugbears, hobgoblins, orcs, etc. etc. are intrinsically evil, and that is built into the setting. Now you can make a special exception but it can create difficulties for other players that are trying to follow the setting. That is why making a PC that goes with the flow is often appreciated more by other players.

Now to your point on a mastermind goblin. That's no problem, do it, there's no issue with a scheming goblin. A good goblin is a different case. Recognize that goblins are intrinsically evil in the SG setting and that exterminating a goblin is universally considered a good deed. Consider that it might be easier to play a mastermind as a human where you could pass as good or other players might be willing to spend the time to redeem an evil soul. Spend time trying to redeem an evil goblin? We got a sword for that Smile
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 385

PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uriel wrote:
Verbannon wrote:

So you ignore my post and instead just reassert your declaration unsupported. So many things wrong like Evil isnt even accurate because that leaves room for the wrong kind of evil. A patient mastermind goblin is just as against type as any good goblin.


Part of the premise of D&D (and SG!) is that evil is real and physical. There are creatures, like demons and devils, that are actually evil. It's not just that there are evil actions, but certain creatures are evil by their very existence. This is fundamental in a way that personality traits like patience, scheming, etc are not.

Back in 1e this was true, but back in 1e, orcs, goblins, kobolds ect were completely devoid of any culture and were just different tiers of generic monsters to fight.

Goblins, drow, bugbears, hobgoblins, orcs, etc. etc. are intrinsically evil, and that is built into the setting. Now you can make a special exception but it can create difficulties for other players that are trying to follow the setting. That is why making a PC that goes with the flow is often appreciated more by other players.

Now to your point on a mastermind goblin. That's no problem, do it, there's no issue with a scheming goblin. A good goblin is a different case. Recognize that goblins are intrinsically evil in the SG setting and that exterminating a goblin is universally considered a good deed. Consider that it might be easier to play a mastermind as a human where you could pass as good or other players might be willing to spend the time to redeem an evil soul. Spend time trying to redeem an evil goblin? We got a sword for that Smile


That evil is a real force has no bearing on this conversation.Also you clearly dont understand the mechanics of it. I recommend you read the 3.5 hero builder, book of exalted deeds and book of vile darkness to learn about good and evil in D&D. All can be found in pdf form online. And the 2e complete book of humanoids and the 3.5 version both. To understand race rationales for their evil natures. Which you'll see is never just 'because they're evil, duh.'

Back in 1e this was true. But back in 1e Kobolds, Orcs and goblins were all just "goblinoids" and were generic and cultureless. And just different tiers of generic monsters to fight.

As for your last paragragh, that is simply wrong. Races have many traits and cultures associated with their race. And you cant ignore them. To play a mastermind goblin is just as bad as playing a good goblin. If you don't understand that then you don't understand anything about roleplaying a race.
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 385

PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Cyric. I now have a clear goal here, convince people that races have essential cultures and traits beyond just good and evil. That need to be RPed just as much as alignment.
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Nienne
Immortal


Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 2572
Location: Aussieland

PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you're going to have to settle on disagreeing with the majority of the imm base then, Verbie - we set up races with restricted alignments for a reason; whether by nature or nurture or both, certain races are considered to be inherently evil. We don't set up goblins with a penalty to int, so they can still be considered capable of considerable cunning - obviously uncommon among the masses, but an adventurer is always a stand-out of his/her species. Whereas good alignments are disallowed to goblins from the outset, as the standard is that the species lends to evil and it would take incredibly unique circumstances for one to be otherwise. It would be a far less common situation than a clever goblin.

You may have a different perspective, but this is the game we've chosen to run, and in this case, we have clarified that the overriding evil is much more of a considered factor than a few cunning entities among the species. I certainly applaud the idea to show players that there is more depth to racial culture in all cases than just a blanket black/white good/evil - we truly encourage that on all fronts as it makes for a far better RP experience on all sides. However, given you don't speak for the immortal base, please remember not to start pushing an agenda that may be contrary to that voiced by the people creating and directing the game itself. If several imms have explained in depth to you that, at least in our setting, clever goblins are acceptable and 'good' goblins are almost unheard of, please take that on board Smile Otherwise this is just becoming argumentative for no more reason than to be contrary.
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 385

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quite the double standard then to expect people RPing elves to act like elves but not people RPing goblins to act like goblins beyond simple adherence to the alignment.

And its not cunning that is required to be a mastermind, its patience. Goblins aren't patient because their lives are short. A goblin trying to play the part of the mastermind who spends ten years setting up his masterplan, could die of old age if a single setback occurs. And patience doesn't have an ability score representing it. And goblins don't have any practical concept of heirs.

Its like how humans seem rushed to elves, goblins are rushed to humans.
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Uriel



Joined: 09 Dec 2013
Posts: 58
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Verbannon wrote:
Quite the double standard then to expect people RPing elves to act like elves but not people RPing goblins to act like goblins beyond simple adherence to the alignment.


If you want to roll up a goblin and show how its done, please do! If you would have fun doing awesome goblin RP, go for it. SG is a community and if you want to make a contribution, go right ahead!

We have some real Elven RP experts and they have been very generous in writing some guidelines on Elven culture. If you would like to take the lead on goblins, go ahead and roll one up. Do some awesome RP, your goblin will become renowned and eventually become a HM. There are some Great Goblins out there -- Quondangel and Ganz come to mind (sorry to any I am leaving out!!). Also long ago there was Hex and Surge. Maybe those folks would have some input on goblin RP too?

Anyways I just wanted to share with you some ideas about why SG has evil races. I used to be very focused on my own characters as a player. As an Imm I have learned to think of SG more as an ecosystem. Now when I think about rolling a character, I think about what would be fun for the most players. I am more concerned with the mix and less concerned with the awesomeness of my individual PC. As a game, it is very helpful to have clearly defined good, bad, and the ugly Smile
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 385

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uriel wrote:
Verbannon wrote:
Quite the double standard then to expect people RPing elves to act like elves but not people RPing goblins to act like goblins beyond simple adherence to the alignment.


If you want to roll up a goblin and show how its done, please do! If you would have fun doing awesome goblin RP, go for it. SG is a community and if you want to make a contribution, go right ahead!

We have some real Elven RP experts and they have been very generous in writing some guidelines on Elven culture. If you would like to take the lead on goblins, go ahead and roll one up. Do some awesome RP, your goblin will become renowned and eventually become a HM. There are some Great Goblins out there -- Quondangel and Ganz come to mind (sorry to any I am leaving out!!). Also long ago there was Hex and Surge. Maybe those folks would have some input on goblin RP too?

Anyways I just wanted to share with you some ideas about why SG has evil races. I used to be very focused on my own characters as a player. As an Imm I have learned to think of SG more as an ecosystem. Now when I think about rolling a character, I think about what would be fun for the most players. I am more concerned with the mix and less concerned with the awesomeness of my individual PC. As a game, it is very helpful to have clearly defined good, bad, and the ugly Smile


Sharing why SG had evil races was pointless and irrelevant. No one in this thread was arguing in favor of letting goblins be good.
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Nienne
Immortal


Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 2572
Location: Aussieland

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Verbie, I really need to ask you to take a step back at this point. We imms spend a proportionately unfair amount of time, particularly lately, addressing your concerns & complaints compared to any other player - a lot of this due to your inclination seeming to think that you have a better perspective on matters than anyone else, or need more detail than we really have the means to contend with. Multiple imms have explained things here to you and have tried to help out, but you still will not accept an answer, and continue to argue. Or, just tell people their posts are pointless which is really unnecessary, and downright rude.

I get that you're fairly direct by nature, but this is getting beyond ok and I need to pull this up short now. It's really frustrating a lot of us to have this go around in circles. Personally I'm going to give you the disclaimer now that I won't be responding to any more of your threads unless I have to shut them down; I'm getting fairly burnt out on being dragged into the unending discussions when I could be planning & coding instead. Accordingly, I will be locking this thread; we've tried to explain things to you and I think the point has been made here more than sufficiently, and doesn't need further attention.

At the end of the day, we imms are running this game and we need to make the calls; it doesn't matter if they coincide with your opinion, or whatever sourcebook you're looking at - our game is FR based, not gospel, and it's what we make it. If that doesn't always suit your perspective, to be equally blunt, that's just too bad. The game is what we've made it, and you can't force that to change by pushing until everyone else is over it.

We are trying very hard these days to foster an environment of communication between players and imms. We are trying to ensure prompt responses are given to concerns, and player feedback and ideas are taken on board with our direction, so that everyone has equal input - this game belongs to all of us. When this open communication becomes imbalanced, and one side constantly continues to push without listening, the conversation becomes pointless and I will close it down if necessary.

Please try to foster more constructive discussions going forward. All of us, myself included, have times where we need to accept an answer and understand when to let something go. Most people aren't going to go into the high-detail debates you seem to prefer, and will become very frustrated when we keep getting dragged into them. Uriel's offered a few constructive options you can undertake if you choose Smile
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