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cyric
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Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 291
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Verbannon wrote:
I know my opinion means nothing here. But I really do feel based on what Cyric said, is that it sounds like Avatars are approaching things in a very ineffecient way. In my opinion, the creation of items are not essential. And a pool of Avatar level items to draw upon would be more effecient and building the pool can be done idly in free time.

And most can probably be accomplished with pre existing NPCs and such. Its not like Avatars need or even should create original organizations.

And of course just responding to players and helping them influence the world, should be the simplest thing of all.

In my opinion it sounds like most Avatars are suffering from a common ailment that afflicts new DMs even in normal campaigns. Trying to do too muc rather than taking the easy way, which in DMing usually is the right way.

But thats just my ooinion, and its probably wrong so Ill just concede that Im wrong right now.

Probably why my own request to be an Avatar was rejected.

Just like to throw in my two cents on the above, all valid points but there's one more thing we need to watch out for, and it's killing players. All joking aside more often than not a player Death in a plot or by avatar hand will result in claims of unfairness or favoritism, or at the very least dissatisfaction with the plot, even if the player is aiming to directly attack the followers of a chaotic evil greater deity of murder and strife. If the fights are too easy though, there's no tension. Very tough to balance that and the tougher you want the fight to be, the more you need to test it.

But tell you what Verbannon, you give me an example of a plot (including story, antagonist, rewards), and I'll tell you what needs to go into it.
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cyric wrote:
Verbannon wrote:
I know my opinion means nothing here. But I really do feel based on what Cyric said, is that it sounds like Avatars are approaching things in a very ineffecient way. In my opinion, the creation of items are not essential. And a pool of Avatar level items to draw upon would be more effecient and building the pool can be done idly in free time.

And most can probably be accomplished with pre existing NPCs and such. Its not like Avatars need or even should create original organizations.

And of course just responding to players and helping them influence the world, should be the simplest thing of all.

In my opinion it sounds like most Avatars are suffering from a common ailment that afflicts new DMs even in normal campaigns. Trying to do too muc rather than taking the easy way, which in DMing usually is the right way.

But thats just my ooinion, and its probably wrong so Ill just concede that Im wrong right now.

Probably why my own request to be an Avatar was rejected.

Just like to throw in my two cents on the above, all valid points but there's one more thing we need to watch out for, and it's killing players. All joking aside more often than not a player Death in a plot or by avatar hand will result in claims of unfairness or favoritism, or at the very least dissatisfaction with the plot, even if the player is aiming to directly attack the followers of a chaotic evil greater deity of murder and strife. If the fights are too easy though, there's no tension. Very tough to balance that and the tougher you want the fight to be, the more you need to test it.

But tell you what Verbannon, you give me an example of a plot (including story, antagonist, rewards), and I'll tell you what needs to go into it.


okay then. Lets assume a plot an Avatar is using to stimulate things.

Plot: Pirates have been siezing spice shipments all along the coast. These pirates are largely goblinoid and being led by a hob goblin warlord who has a secret deal with the Torm Thieves guild who in turn have buyers lined up ready to buy bulk discount spices from the thireves guild.

Antagonists: The hobgoblin, his pirates, the thieves guild and the corrupt merchants and their mercanaries.

Reward: If adventurers right this wrong, they can earn themselves a gold trickle. Which represents stocks in tbe spice trade they were given as a reward. (Gold will periodically be deposited in their account at the Torm Bank)

If I was running this plot, I would just grab some preexisting hobgoblins, goblins and bug bears from the Shadowgate Monster Vault and modify them with a sailor's theme if any change is made. Pre existing thieves and pre existing mercanaries. I know all exist. And just note their location if I need to pull them up. Then I would grab another one of these pre existing hobgoblins, and soup up its stats to represent the warlord. Then I would read up on any existing information on torm's thieves guild, the Torm Merchant Politics and regional bobgoblin activity. If there is none then Ill just make it up as I go. Finally I would decide what to do if no players show i terest or something similar to this plot. In this case I would just move on to having the hobgoboin warlorr now fully funded launch assaults somewhere. The details on that I can figure out when it comes to it.

Now that preperation is done. Ill try to do the gold trickle thing between now and the end of the adventure if that fails I can just give a lump sum of gold. Or an IOU. Because you always in preparation first do the bare minimum. Then after that you use extra time for anything special.

So to run it I would announce the raids, a call for help. And then react depending on what the players do. And thats it.

Thats my example, how would you do it?
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Nienne
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Verbannon wrote:
ok. I think you could avoid a lot of that if you skipped the write story step. But ok.


That's usually the quickest/easiest bit, tbh... Razz

Also, there's no such thing as a monster vault. Plot monsters are generally custom made for plots, short of long-term/savvy avatars who keep a stash of previous keys (they make the monsters go) for repeat use. Though of course that only goes so far, not like you can use the same hobgoblins every week. And a repaint (even if it's a thief at the core) means a brand new monster. Some avatar tools are better than others, and for the ones lacking, we then need hours of high-end coder time to redo them - the back-end for those kind of commands is quite elaborate.

Now in your example above, you have outlined your story, written your creatures, and pinpointed four level-appropriate players. Great! Now, two actually want to take out the pirates & get the shineys. The third player secretly wants to screw the others & asks to contact the pirates before the assault goes down, wanting a (different) reward for helping them as one of their 'crew'. The fourth, who was the only melee-capable member of the group, disappears for a couple weeks & you're unsure of a return. You now effectively half of your original group, both of whom happen to be very squishy casters & inexperienced players, likely to actually try to hit the pirates - who already know they're coming & would be over-prepared.

Now off you go and redo all of your creatures from scratch so they're of a fair balance to fight with the adjusted party, and also come up with a contingency plan for why the pirates and the powerful guild behind them were warned & yet somehow don't manage to completely screw everyone involved Smile
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 385

PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you are saying that in the 20+ years of Shadowgate, no one ever thought to code something to make reskinning a monster possible? Not even a command to dump the raw monster code so the avatar can just change the name, adjust attributes then reupload?

Well there is your problem. If you want Avatars, then you should provide them with the basic tools needed to run a campaign in Shadowgate. Updates to make Avataring easier are way more important than any update for the players.

Because in the end, players need Avatars, they dont need a magic item system, new classes, or anything else. All updates are meaningless if there aren't Avatars.

Your entire 'problem' you showed me for my situation would be solved if you gave Avatars the tools to directly adjust existing monsters.
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry I got angry.
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Gia



Joined: 03 Feb 2017
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So correct me if I'm wrong, but here's what I'm getting from this:
Players feel like they cannot influence the game world, because even if we had "enough" avatars, they, in turn, can't truly influence the game world beyond temporary "canvases". The staff is aware of this and discussing(?) how to fix it, but with the player and coder population being far bigger than the avatar population, it's not a priority.

Meanwhile, players are frustrated at lack of "meaningful interactions", while the DMs are frustrated because when "meaningful interactions" take place, people still aren't really satisfied and sometimes feel "screwed over". In addition people have a tendency of disappearing, which frustrates everyone.

Am I right so far?

One of main differences with tabletop vs Shadowgate DMing seems to be that in tabletop you generally have ONE group working towards a common goal, in Shadowgate you have several groups working towards different(often conflicting) goals, especially in player-driven plots.

Could we add a "Conflicting Plots Ok" flag to players, where when you turned it ON you'd get a warning saying that "you are agreeing to participate in plots where conflicting player goals might have negative results for your character."

Basically if the flag is OFF you could still participate in "dungeon crawl-ish" plots, but not start anything that conflicted with an other player's interest, like killing all the cyricists in Shadow for instance. The moment people started working against each-other, imms would give you a "heads up" and you could choose to opt out/in?

On the same note, "Plot OK" flag ON would require you " to make an effort to notify the staff if you know you'll be disappearing for a while". I realize that sometimes people don't plan their absence, but a reminder to let people know you'll be gone might be helpful.

Lastly, from a player's perspective; if my request via avatarmail will take time to process a simple "we got your mail, we're backlashed here so it will take time to process" is often enough for me to put it on hold with no lingering frustration.

Cheers,
Gia
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Verbannon



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gia wrote:
So correct me if I'm wrong, but here's what I'm getting from this:
Players feel like they cannot influence the game world, because even if we had "enough" avatars, they, in turn, can't truly influence the game world beyond temporary "canvases". The staff is aware of this and discussing(?) how to fix it, but with the player and coder population being far bigger than the avatar population, it's not a priority.

Meanwhile, players are frustrated at lack of "meaningful interactions", while the DMs are frustrated because when "meaningful interactions" take place, people still aren't really satisfied and sometimes feel "screwed over". In addition people have a tendency of disappearing, which frustrates everyone.

Am I right so far?

One of main differences with tabletop vs Shadowgate DMing seems to be that in tabletop you generally have ONE group working towards a common goal, in Shadowgate you have several groups working towards different(often conflicting) goals, especially in player-driven plots.

Could we add a "Conflicting Plots Ok" flag to players, where when you turned it ON you'd get a warning saying that "you are agreeing to participate in plots where conflicting player goals might have negative results for your character."

Basically if the flag is OFF you could still participate in "dungeon crawl-ish" plots, but not start anything that conflicted with an other player's interest, like killing all the cyricists in Shadow for instance. The moment people started working against each-other, imms would give you a "heads up" and you could choose to opt out/in?

On the same note, "Plot OK" flag ON would require you " to make an effort to notify the staff if you know you'll be disappearing for a while". I realize that sometimes people don't plan their absence, but a reminder to let people know you'll be gone might be helpful.

Lastly, from a player's perspective; if my request via avatarmail will take time to process a simple "we got your mail, we're backlashed here so it will take time to process" is often enough for me to put it on hold with no lingering frustration.

Cheers,
Gia


I think the only problem is that Avatars dont have the neccessary tools to actually run anything.
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Aunuit



Joined: 14 Jul 2014
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just like anything else in SG, the issue with avataring cannot be pinpointed to one thing. The extra work involved because of outdated tools is just one facet of what makes a avataring difficult and oftentimes unrewarding.

Anything that involves catering to the direct wants/needs of the playerbase is pretty dicey. This is an element of avatar burnout that has been mentioned by other immortals in different posts, if only hinted at during this particular thread. You say that players don't need fancy items and special mobs or plots... I would tell you that I have seen players, at the end of the plot, throw down their beautifully customized reward and say, "What the fuck? THIS isn't what I wanted. I wanted.." Nevermind players criticizing every other aspect of the plot along the way, having no shortage of suggestions or other disappointments.

Anything that is going to involve constant player interaction (including policing players and/or catering to their egos) is going to fray the nerves and patience. It would be much simpler if we were all robots and no personal perspectives or feelings were involved, but for most of us that's just not going to happen.

And you really can't just ignore those people either, because they're either permeating the lines with their bullshit, disrupting the other three people just trying to play and poisoning the air, or they're quitting - and it can be tough to say good riddance if that means you're bidding adieu to 1/3 of the playerbase.
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aunuit wrote:
Just like anything else in SG, the issue with avataring cannot be pinpointed to one thing. The extra work involved because of outdated tools is just one facet of what makes a avataring difficult and oftentimes unrewarding.

Anything that involves catering to the direct wants/needs of the playerbase is pretty dicey. This is an element of avatar burnout that has been mentioned by other immortals in different posts, if only hinted at during this particular thread. You say that players don't need fancy items and special mobs or plots... I would tell you that I have seen players, at the end of the plot, throw down their beautifully customized reward and say, "What the fuck? THIS isn't what I wanted. I wanted.." Nevermind players criticizing every other aspect of the plot along the way, having no shortage of suggestions or other disappointments.

Anything that is going to involve constant player interaction (including policing players and/or catering to their egos) is going to fray the nerves and patience. It would be much simpler if we were all robots and no personal perspectives or feelings were involved, but for most of us that's just not going to happen.

And you really can't just ignore those people either, because they're either permeating the lines with their bullshit, disrupting the other three people just trying to play and poisoning the air, or they're quitting - and it can be tough to say good riddance if that means you're bidding adieu to 1/3 of the playerbase.


If one third of the player base is that much of an asshole. Then all is lost. How did players like that make HM? I recommend public shaming for the assholes.
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Mister Black



Joined: 03 Sep 2016
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow this really went down a negative side street. When I posted this thread it was not really meant to be a we need more of something old that didn't work. I've been an avatar before and the reason I quit is because of the amount of work, limited tools and lack of any real incentive for the effort I had put in. I would also say that finding someone who actually enjoys dming specifically is exceptionally difficult. When I played tabletop there was usually one person who ran almost all games and when they wanted a turn at playing it never lasted long because one or two sessions later the new dm wanted to be back to playing.

Sg has since taken a give everything to everyone approach with no holds barred and maybe that will make more people want to play. It has been watered down to easy mode where there is no sense of accomplishment because anyone can easily accomplish anything. The new mercenary system exacerbates this problem as it makes things far easier while also making seeking allies less necessary and even playing a cleric rather pointless as you could never hope to be as useful as a limitless heals with no downtime mega warrior.

What sg has not been focused on is incentivizing interaction and roleplay in a new way that might make it easier for stories to be consistently happening between players and immortals.

Here are a few systems I've run across elsewhere that seem to have massively benefited rp and immersion and engaging a much larger player base.

Rp xp : That's right you get xp for interacting with other players through says and emotes. The amount of xp ramps up the longer you are interacting and the less ooc commands are used in between. Emote sparring and training actually benefits your score card and you dont have to grind mobs if you don't want to.

Player run events : One of the most satisfying things you can have as a player is the ability to tell your own story and do so in a dramatic fashion. This is basically a pseudo avatar who gets to apply to tell a specific story and once approved essentially has the freedom of an avatar to go about making it happen. This is incentivized by earning reward points that can be applied toward their own characters based on how many players they got involved and how much they enjoyed it with bonuses possible based on complexity and overall game history impact.

Rp based rewards : Ties somewhat into the above but there needs to be better rewards for promoting roleplay than soloing dungeons or shifters with a merc. These can range from customizable artififacts to house deeds and positions of power. These sorts of rewards should only be earned through participation in plot events or running plots with plot running having the largest reward because we want people to feel like the time they invest in it has meaning. Points toward these rewards can also be given for players willing to help imms out with painting areas etc. incentives incentives incentives.

A living history : To keep track of what is going on and to prove you made an impact on the game, think of it like a rumors command that tells you what shit has gone down and who was involved. Essentially like pcnotes for the sg world. This can be updated by imms, story runners and even players with approval but there needs to be a way to keep track of how the in game world is evolving so players have a clear view of what the state of the world is and can take pride when they see their own accomplishments there. This can be as simple as showing everything to everyone or complex as revealing things based off faction ratings, skills, social scores etc.

These are the sorts of changes that would actually interest rpers imo and might even bring some from other games where they already have similar systems but might prefer our more faithful to d&d advancement system and plethora of classes. These are the types of systems that have stolen me from sg.

I would love to be stolen back, I have spent almost 20 years on this mud and want nothing but the best for it.
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Gia



Joined: 03 Feb 2017
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Anything that is going to involve constant player interaction (including policing players and/or catering to their egos) is going to fray the nerves and patience. It would be much simpler if we were all robots and no personal perspectives or feelings were involved, but for most of us that's just not going to happen.


That's one of the issues I was trying to address - if people are required to "agree to lose if necessary, or at least not get what they want", the "pre-warning" might prevent some bitching. Maybe?

Is there a "player behaviour wish-list" among avatars, beyond the points under "Quests and Plots" on the web-page? I'd appreciate a positive one, if possible - what do you appreciate players do?
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myrkul



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aunuit has a good point - player requests can be annoying. Player requests are especially annoying if it is additional requests from the same player as an individual. Players who get a group together to make a group request are awesome, and thank you RPers for being awesome Smile

Nienne is absolutely right about how much time it takes to make stuff. And she is a master with like 1000's of rooms and monsters coded up. And her point on like 2 players actually want to do the plot, the 3rd wanting to stab everyone else in the back, and1 player doesn't show up is so true!! Smile

Verb, I have something like 170+ keys made for individual unique monsters and 100+ rooms made for plots. Lurue may still have me beat in the rooms department Smile I have a lot of unique items made too, but I don't like to do it, because it is tedious. If I get excited about a story and I drink a couple pots of coffee I might make something cool but it takes a lot these days Smile All this was possible because Ares upgraded Firedragon's orb for monsters, Ares created the makeroom command for av's, and Nienne made an avatar item maker. So people have worked very hard to create things both for players and for avatars to help players. It's just a ton of work!

Anyways, don't complain about how we don't have Avs if you are not willing to run some plots too! Razz Or if that's not your cup of tea, write up some item descrips! Writing text and coloring is very helpful.
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Ares
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:06 pm    Post subject: Tools Reply with quote

More tools for avatars to be able to deal with the mechanical side of plots more easily isn't a bad idea either. Having never been an avatar myself, I don't actually know all of the trouble that avatars have doing plots. I suspect that one day I will have to work with an avatar through a plot and write down all the problem places and then actually code stuff to fix them.
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

myrkul wrote:
Aunuit has a good point - player requests can be annoying. Player requests are especially annoying if it is additional requests from the same player as an individual. Players who get a group together to make a group request are awesome, and thank you RPers for being awesome Smile

Nienne is absolutely right about how much time it takes to make stuff. And she is a master with like 1000's of rooms and monsters coded up. And her point on like 2 players actually want to do the plot, the 3rd wanting to stab everyone else in the back, and1 player doesn't show up is so true!! Smile

Verb, I have something like 170+ keys made for individual unique monsters and 100+ rooms made for plots. Lurue may still have me beat in the rooms department Smile I have a lot of unique items made too, but I don't like to do it, because it is tedious. If I get excited about a story and I drink a couple pots of coffee I might make something cool but it takes a lot these days Smile All this was possible because Ares upgraded Firedragon's orb for monsters, Ares created the makeroom command for av's, and Nienne made an avatar item maker. So people have worked very hard to create things both for players and for avatars to help players. It's just a ton of work!

Anyways, don't complain about how we don't have Avs if you are not willing to run some plots too! Razz Or if that's not your cup of tea, write up some item descrips! Writing text and coloring is very helpful.


I offered to be an Avatar and got rejected. I offered to help you with lorecan items, but got rejected.

And I honestly think, though please do not take this the wrong way, if I'm just being dumb but I think you guys should share those keys in a single vault and more importantly, I think you need a way to reskin it. If you cant reskin and adjust things then you cant improvise. And if you cant improvise then you cant DM. Since DMing is all about improvising. Of course thats DMing, maybe, inspite everything I heard, improvising isn't important for Avataring. I mean what do I know, all I have is an unsubstantiated opinion. So sorry in advance.

Everything you are saying basically boils down to "it takes too long to do anytholing because everything always has to be done from scratch"

Thats the only reason the players are annoying also.If it was fast an easy to improv. You could deal with 30 players at one no problem. Maybe, possibly, who knows, not me this is just my stupid opinion.

unless Im somehow badly misunderstanding.
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cyric
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Verbannon wrote:
cyric wrote:
Verbannon wrote:
I know my opinion means nothing here. But I really do feel based on what Cyric said, is that it sounds like Avatars are approaching things in a very ineffecient way. In my opinion, the creation of items are not essential. And a pool of Avatar level items to draw upon would be more effecient and building the pool can be done idly in free time.

And most can probably be accomplished with pre existing NPCs and such. Its not like Avatars need or even should create original organizations.

And of course just responding to players and helping them influence the world, should be the simplest thing of all.

In my opinion it sounds like most Avatars are suffering from a common ailment that afflicts new DMs even in normal campaigns. Trying to do too muc rather than taking the easy way, which in DMing usually is the right way.

But thats just my ooinion, and its probably wrong so Ill just concede that Im wrong right now.

Probably why my own request to be an Avatar was rejected.

Just like to throw in my two cents on the above, all valid points but there's one more thing we need to watch out for, and it's killing players. All joking aside more often than not a player Death in a plot or by avatar hand will result in claims of unfairness or favoritism, or at the very least dissatisfaction with the plot, even if the player is aiming to directly attack the followers of a chaotic evil greater deity of murder and strife. If the fights are too easy though, there's no tension. Very tough to balance that and the tougher you want the fight to be, the more you need to test it.

But tell you what Verbannon, you give me an example of a plot (including story, antagonist, rewards), and I'll tell you what needs to go into it.


okay then. Lets assume a plot an Avatar is using to stimulate things.

Plot: Pirates have been siezing spice shipments all along the coast. These pirates are largely goblinoid and being led by a hob goblin warlord who has a secret deal with the Torm Thieves guild who in turn have buyers lined up ready to buy bulk discount spices from the thireves guild.

Antagonists: The hobgoblin, his pirates, the thieves guild and the corrupt merchants and their mercanaries.

Reward: If adventurers right this wrong, they can earn themselves a gold trickle. Which represents stocks in tbe spice trade they were given as a reward. (Gold will periodically be deposited in their account at the Torm Bank)

If I was running this plot, I would just grab some preexisting hobgoblins, goblins and bug bears from the Shadowgate Monster Vault and modify them with a sailor's theme if any change is made. Pre existing thieves and pre existing mercanaries. I know all exist. And just note their location if I need to pull them up. Then I would grab another one of these pre existing hobgoblins, and soup up its stats to represent the warlord. Then I would read up on any existing information on torm's thieves guild, the Torm Merchant Politics and regional bobgoblin activity. If there is none then Ill just make it up as I go. Finally I would decide what to do if no players show i terest or something similar to this plot. In this case I would just move on to having the hobgoboin warlorr now fully funded launch assaults somewhere. The details on that I can figure out when it comes to it.

Now that preperation is done. Ill try to do the gold trickle thing between now and the end of the adventure if that fails I can just give a lump sum of gold. Or an IOU. Because you always in preparation first do the bare minimum. Then after that you use extra time for anything special.

So to run it I would announce the raids, a call for help. And then react depending on what the players do. And thats it.

Thats my example, how would you do it?

1. Create npcs: hobgoblins, bugbears, goblins, thieves, merchants, city officials, and possibly a sailor who was a victim of the raids: whether making from scratch or modifying existing, you need to set long description, short descriptions, speech, messages, and give them equipment. Some emotes wouldn't be bad either. If they're going to be in combat, You need to set their class, level, stats, hit points and skills. You need to set feats and spells known for player-like npcs (probably the head hobgoblin and a member of the thieves guild). You need all of this done fairly well because you don't know which faction the players may try to align with. 20-30 hours, double this if you're a newbie avatar.
2. Test npcs: use a persona which is equipped as a player to determine if the mobs are balanced for the level you want to run the plot for. Adjust as necessary. 5-10 hours
3. Gold trickle doesn't exist. Lump sum is boring, but if you're set on giving gold as a reward, that's the best bet. Better reward is an item like the sword of the hobgoblin leader (or other appropriate item for the players) so you can create that and test it for balance too. Need items for each major player involved otherwise it will get ugly when there's only one tangible reward. A deed also. 3 hours for an item that's weaker than what can be found in the game, double for an item closer to the power curve.
4. You could create some rooms to act as makeshift ships for the players to fight in. This is optional, but if you don't do this, you'll need to come up with an excuse why the pirates are hanging around a city. 5-10 hours if you know what you're doing, twice that for a newbie.
5. As Nienne pointed out, be prepared to have to change any of the above as players shift aliegaiances and either don't log on or insert themselves into the plot halfway through. Runnning the actual plot, responding to mails, making rolls and determinations, and making adjustments on the fly, and posting up results or making changes to room descriptions. 20 hours, give or take.

I've actually found the best setup is two avatars working together, one person acting as the face to the players and another avatar updating things on the fly.

If anyone thinks my estimates are off give me a shout but in my experience this is what it takes for a medium sized plot.
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