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Shadowgate's RP Theme
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kassius
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Aug 2017
Posts: 243

PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:18 pm    Post subject: Shadowgate's RP Theme Reply with quote

Friends,

After Saide's post and with the amount of mails I've gotten over the past few days, I've decided to suspend my current plot because of its darker RP line. I understand that this isn't what anyone wants, but I realized that RP has hit a point and I no longer can continue to RP as I once did. As a person I don't have the ability to stay in the evil/darkness very long anymore it is why I don't play Alzar. Alzar lead me to some great friends IRL through Dorje and her family, but my time there is over.

SG isn't a movie, it isn't a story where I know everyone involved, I control everything or the people reading/watching can leave if they want. Yes you can leave, but currently we have no way of knowing if that person has experienced a trauma in their life that a RP line might touch on and I for one have been a dick in not understanding this and demanding that we push RP and adult themes when what we should be pushing is fun.

Currently I'll be around to help wrap up the suspended plot by giving the players involved the closer they need, but it won't be as gratifying as most want and for that I apologize give me a few days.

Going forward I believe that SG needs to move away from such RP as torture, ****, and the likes to a more of a hack-n-slash environment where people just come to have fun and while this sucks it is needed and I am not admin so it'll be RP encouraged till they decided differently, however I need to distance myself from the hardcore side of SG going forward.

Kas
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Mikyn



Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well... I don't feel that rape needs to be in the game to enjoy it, but you're heading down a very slippery slope where you seem to want to remove ALL conflict. And that's basically the removal of RP... if you just want a happy little mud where everyone gets along, fine, but you'll have to remove the "RP" tag for the mud.

Especially when there aren't avatars around, playing evil would be impossible without some manner of "dark" RP, be it torture or some manner of injury inflicted on another player. And it's that conflict that creates a story, that allows players to engage in more than just a group that chills in bars and occasionally goes out to kill a dragon for shits and giggles. SG is well on its way to just being a glorified chatroom.
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ViolaRose



Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 113

PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, I'm very sorry to hear that somebody got traumatized. The game can certainly go to strange, dark places at times (I've been there on both sides of the table!).

That said, I agree 100% with Mikyn. If the game is meant to have conflict, it requires good versus evil. And if you ban "dark themed" roleplay, you're essentially banning people from roleplaying evil. It seems highly dramatic to me to say (paraphrasing here, obviously) "Somebody got hurt by roleplay, obviously the best course of action is that nobody ever roleplays again."

Sure, a line can be drawn (such as no rape), but can it at least be reasonable, please? ShadowGate has ALWAYS been an adult-themed game, and people don't come to ShadowGate expecting Kindergarten.

Yeah, I get it, Saide is administrator now and he can do whatever he wants and if we don't like it we can quit. I'm just pleading for a compromise before knee-jerk reactions.

I'd sorta like to hear what others think about this topic, because I know I've always been down with the darker side of things. Does everyone agree cutting out roleplay as Kas has suggested is the best thing??
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saide
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Joined: 18 Mar 2007
Posts: 395

PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my perspective its not about conflict being removed. It's about being creative without doing stuff that makes people have less enjoyment from the game. For example, I will never RP having a missing hand - I honestly feel like it would be a waste of my RL time. I could do infinite other things. I wouldn't require that anyone else RP something like that either. I have never liked the idea of it and again honestly don't think it adds any value to the game or even any fun to the game, for most people.

Maybe there's some potential for it to lead to other stories down the road and maybe sometimes that's fun and worth it for some people. I am not one of those people and I doubt that every player we have is one of those people either (maybe I'm wrong).

I actually see no positives or see why anyone would want to choose to play a game where they must pretend that they are handicapped for fun - I mean I can see situations where it might be beneficial to experience what it's like for someone who has lost a limb just so that you can have more empathy for them or understand the perspective better.

I can also promise you that there are people who get turned off by overtly sexual RP - to the point where it's just stupid, not fun, and possibly awkward for them.

This is also not a knee-jerk reaction - as of now I banned rape role play - not sorry about that - if you don't like it - go role play it somewhere else. I won't compromise there.

The rest of the stuff I have up for a vote on the game.

A compromise now that some players suggested might be to set up RP flags that people can turn on with color codes showing the type of RP that they are comfortable with engaging in at any given moment - that way everyone might be able to be on the same page going into a given situation.

This leaves us with some awkwardness still. For example, if a character is tortured graphically and spends weeks/months RPing that out - this presents RP to the people that character interacts with that might be more graphic/more real than they want to deal with. So do all the encountered characters just leave/fade to black when the character with the disfigured face/missing limb/etc starts role playing it? That might be an answer worth exploring I just think it presents awkwardness and in all honesty we're debating a part of the game that mostly doesn't add anything or at least I fail to see how it adds any enjoyment.
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Nienne
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Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 2764
Location: Aussieland

PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This was basically my concern - we won't be able to have a legitimate evil side and an option to roll one if we remove all conflict potential. I certainly do agree with Saide's assessment on the rape situation as a whole, and who might be triggered without us knowing who's behind the screen. I suspect the bigger picture may need more consideration than just being yanked wholesale.

Part of the problem is that we have a few (small) warnings about adult content but nothing that really enforces as much; I know I started playing in my mid teens and there was nothing to prevent it. Some games ban all sexual content as there's no way to verify legalities in the various countries people log from, or to confirm who's behind the screen and how they may cope with that. Similarly, someone on this mud can roll up a 15yo character and engage in sexual conduct, which in a LOT of the countries our players come from, would be getting into illegal territory, even as game content. Also to consider - the focus on sexual matters is a very strong western construct, whereas matters such as torture may be more of an issue to certain people as well.

I think it merits a discussion of exactly where, if necessary, we need to re-draw the line to maintain the focus we have now on the fun of everyone involved - avoiding things that will cause upsets vs neutering the potential of evil characters to be actually evil. I'll have a talk to Saide & Octo when able but I'd welcome ideas and/or precedents elsewhere that may offer better guidance.
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ViolaRose



Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 113

PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it might be worth exploring having an additional profile for characters that would detail everything they're comfortable with (and including a disclaimer that they agree they're above (or not) of a certain age, which would allow them to consent to things). I've been on games with similar set ups. So it could look something like:

Roleplay or no? YES
Are you comfortable with dark themes, such as torture, limb removal, etc.? NO
Are you comfortable with overtly sexual situations? YES
Do you verify that you're 18 or over? YES

And then it would be the responsibility of people who do want to partake in this sort of roleplay to only include those who have given the thumbs up.

As for people running into situations they're not comfortable with IG, perhaps it should be up to them to include it as a character quirk, and remove themselves from the situation, knowing that they're playing a game where it's a possibility.
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Mikyn



Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saide, I would be fine with restricting player conflict if you could guarantee 24 hour access and involvement by a crew of avatars. Unfortunately, we rarely even have one around. It is impossible to tell any stories without conflict, and the tools given to the players in the absence of avatars is meager at best.

To take your example of losing a hand:

Evil A captures and cuts off Good B's hand. Conflict is created, whereby Cleric C can get involved in a lengthy collection of tithes/materials/quests to heal Good B. Paladin D can expouse on the righteousness of law and issue a bounty or seek to bring Evil A to justice. Evilcleric E can try to convert Good B with the promise of healing at only the low cost of giving up his pithy faith to weaker gods. Good B can develop his character in how he reacts to his misfortune, and how he chooses to remedy the situation.

All of these RP opportunities arise, because of a "dark" RP event. This is weeks or months of things happening, instead of just looking at your stats and gear, and figuring out how to upgrade your numbers a little bit.
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saide
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Joined: 18 Mar 2007
Posts: 395

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can guarantee 24 hour access and involvement with a crew of avatars if players are willing to pay real life money so that these people are compensated for dedicating their real life time which is forever gone.

The same reason I will never RP my hand missing - I can spend my RL time doing a lot of other things. So can anyone else.

We are a code based game - otherwise we would need 1 room and some player files - and then every interaction could happen in echos or whatever, so you could pretend that you are where ever you want to be.

We are NOT table top - in Table Top I can create a kingdom with the most elaborate design that you can imagine in the span of a few minutes. Such a feat on SG takes months or longer assuming RL doesn't get in the way.

What is going to happen is that players are going to need to learn to play the game without immortal intervention and enjoy it. We are not going to be there to do everything or make things happen that are not coded constantly.

It's past time that our players realize this and either recognize that they like our system and stay to play (maybe help improve it) or find something else to do.

At this point in time also if you are not logging in regularly to help the game, then I am sorry but I am not going to put much stock in your opinion.
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Mikyn



Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I won't be putting any time into SG, you're correct about that. I invested a lot of my time in my past few characters, and had misgivings about your changes but tried to give it the benefit of the doubt. I believe "RP encouraged" was touted, but that never materialized in any shape or form.

I get that imms and avatars won't always be around, or infrequently at best. And I'm pointing out that any kind of narrative requires conflict, and that you're on a path to further tie players hands so that they can't do anything on their own. But whatever, you're king and commander of SG, we're only pretending that what anyone else has to say has any weight.
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kassius
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Aug 2017
Posts: 243

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikyn

You're wrong that others opinions don't matter and quit being your high tempered self where you rage quit, get pissy because you don't get your way. For years I was timid to RP with you, because I thought I might say/do something wrong and you'd feel threatened into a corner. I can't help it you chose to sit in bars/have mud sex while others adventurer and it put you in a weaker power position, because level does equal that most of the time, not all of the time.

Secondly, if Saide didn't let others opinion matter than I would probably have been made an avatar way before I was. I'm a RL friend of his and I asked multiple times, he did nothing because of my past until Nienne agreed to allow it. Magical enchanting hasn't been changed to fit his plans yet, because the wizzes are discussing it. Sexual RP in all forms was not immediately removed immediately because of wiz and admin discussions, but Saide voiced concerns about the issues that N listed earlier.

You're a great RPer, probably better than I'll ever be. Where you are wrong, Mikyn is that you are very judgmental, I've been there man and been as judgmental as anyone.. Stop it and just let people grow, I've seen great growth in the last plot, people fucked up and tried to grow. However, you leaving won't make us beg you to stay, we have RLs to worry about and hopefully you do too. I and the immortal staff wish you the best, Mikyn..

Kas
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ketamishadowmaul
Site Admin


Joined: 06 Mar 2017
Posts: 32
Location: Philadelphia, PA

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not have all of that secondary information in someone's finger info, things like "are you ever the age of 18, are you OK with torture, maiming, dismemberment ect ect and just do it that way like how the OOG info was added. I don't think wholesale banning all mature themes is a good idea. It seems like a shotgun solution to a fly problem. Also having roleplay flags colorcoded for what kind of situation (Red for mature themes, yellow for questionable, green for nothing bad going on here as an example). Those two things combined would give a lot of freedom for players to decide what content they are comfortable with without hamstringing evil players, and also make sure other players know as well not to involve another player in that sort of situation. Banning rape RP I agree with completely. It really doesn't add anything to a story and has the potential to cause someone real damage. (But like Saide posted in the actual post, it is OK if both parties agree.) But banning other mature themes outright doesn't seem like the right solution to the problem.
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kassius
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Aug 2017
Posts: 243

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ketami,

I think the issue is that with **** rp and the banning of it it lead to questions such as this..

Torture is allowed what if we have a military person who lost their hand/body part and that still affects them?

Kidnap, what if someone knew someone who was kidnapped etc..

If you ban one form because it holds no RP avenue, which I agree with why do the other forms of darkness.

I want to be clear. I'm not law and what I suggested was my opinion. I do not see RP encourage changing as players want that and some admins still want that too. I believe that SG doesn't need super dark evil's to be fun, others disagree...

Kas
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Mikyn



Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sitting in bars and having mudsex? Good to know you're as ignorant as usual. If you're going to make baseless claims, we can add your opinion to the worthless pile.

I suppose you'll call me a cocksucker again next. Perhaps I'm not the one with the rage issues.

My contention is with the suggestion that all dark themes in RP are worthless. I have not argued against rape being banned, but lumping everything else in with it will do a disservice to the game.
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ViolaRose



Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 113

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't want to be insensitive about the past tragedies suffered by our playerbase, but should it not be up to the individual players to decide what they can and cannot handle? Ours is a game where torture can happen (at least, thus far), if someone cannot deal with that, then perhaps ShadowGate isn't the game for them.

I mean of course ultimately it will be up the administration and what sort of game they want to run, but past policy has always been that this is an adult themed game, so there shouldn't be any surprises to the people who opt to play it. Maybe a disclaimer should be added to character creation.

And c'mon Kas, you know as well as me that torture - or even the threat of torment - is one of the few resources evil players have in their hand (which requires no avatar intervention). There's no "creative solutions" beyond that, because then it's pk or nothing. I suppose you can always strip a player of their things before killing them, which is pretty shitty, but tbh I think most players would rather lose a hand for 2 weeks than their Klauth gear. XD
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Gia



Joined: 03 Feb 2017
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,
During my time on SG, my various characters have been maimed, enslaved, abused, raped, burnt nearly to death, pregnant and imprisoned. Every one of those times, that situation has lead to meaningful, heart-wrenching, and above all, very memorable rp. None of that could have happened without mature rp and most of it happened with little to no imm involvement. I'm one of those who would rather live to fight another day, even with one hand cut off, than be killed out of a plot. Other people would prefer to die and move on. That's cool.
Having said that, the aftermath of the rape scene did cause a player to quit his current character, so I don't disagree with the new rule at all. I really don't think we should move away from a mature theme, however, and would be positive to any flags or other tools that let us avoid such a shift.
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