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RP Player Kill Rules
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kassius
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Joined: 17 Aug 2017
Posts: 243

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:16 pm    Post subject: RP Player Kill Rules Reply with quote

Hello,

I've been thinking of these for a while and while I'm still not sure where I reside after my previous post about Dark vs light RP. I understand the mud needs these. Here are some ideas and I want feedback on them before I discuss with Game admin. I am asking for feedback so please be honest, but let be nice. Do not pull a "Kassius" and go flaming me or the entire staff or calling each other dumb etc. We all know I'm a hot head and an ass, don't do as I do, do as I ask Razz

1. You remember everything except who murdered you.
2. To be given life again by Kelemvor and to have your god speak for you, you agree to not investigate, discuss or seek justice. That life is over, dead.. You are reborn and forth hence attempting to rebuild your life.
3. Any maiming, torturing or "issues" will last 48 RL hours and can then be healed by appropriate NPC or PC. Example below

Vaser cuts off Reylin's hand. Reylin is good friends with Alena. 48 hours later Reylin can approach Alena who is a priestess of sufficient level and she will be able to emote out some stuff and bam the hand is back. No allies, seek immortal assistance, but try players first.

Vaser uses mind magic on Reylin. Reylin thinks he is a cute puppy dog and likes licking people and laying at their feet. Reylin waits 48 hours and then seeks out Gaspar to remove the crazy mind magic, bam some rp and done.

4. When doing Dark theme or maiming like RP do not make it so hard for a player to still enjoy the game. No cutting off both hands, taking both eyes etc. That is a bit extreme. From personal experience if you are powerful sometimes you words hold weight. Example of this.

Alzar says to Sylvia I should have someone cut out your tongue. Krusk hears and does so Razz. Why that might have been okay with Syliv'a player. It won't be for everyone and while we have the ability to use tells etc, it limits exploration, rp etc. So please be careful with doing such.

4 Continued - Do not take away completely someone's ability to play. If I see such you'll find that the Gods do not favor you very much and I'll personally come pk you with an NPC bounty hunter. You were prewarned.

5. We need a way for secretive RP to exist. All feedback on how to make that work is welcomed, but as most know SG is small in context to what happens with players and with scrying I do not really feel that is a huge option anymore. Thoughts are welcomed as I did not spend tons of time considering options for this, I attempted to remove the IC vs OOC confusion, which has troubled us of late.

6. Pkmail is not required nor will it be. However, it is VERY useful if you want any immortal assistance or have issues with something happened. I'd highly recommend everyone log player-kill events and/or pkmail.

Lastly, Please don't complain if you lose. We all loose. We lose because of lag, because of class inbalance and most importantly because of luck! Player skill has some to do with it, but the game is always flowing. IF you lost, ya lost, be Bannic and just take the hit, he is pretty awesome at that IMO. Lastly, if you play from your PHONE you're going to lose 99% of the time, no complaining Smile This is a suggestion to not play from your phone if you might see pk. Also per a convo with Vaser if you don't want pk, leave your flag on, we are all okay with people just rping the lighter side and adventuring. No big deal, just remember you can't aid your friends.

Kas
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ViolaRose



Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 113

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My thoughts..

1. Another thing I think that needs to be clarified is how a player's death is approached by other players. If someone was witness to the demise, can they then tell the dead person and allow the dead person to seek revenge on their own death? I know in the past this was a big NO, but I've seen instances of it happening as of late and nobody has called bs on it or anything. I would like to see the tradition of this NOT being allowed. In the past it's been roleplayed as "fear" - that even if the recently deceased learns they'd been recently murdered by Vaser, they'd be too terrified to do anything about it. Until a brand new opportunity and roleplay line picks up that leads to a new altercation. EDIT: Ideally, other players would simply not talk about. The murdered person is done and out of the way until that line of roleplay has come to its conclusion, because frankly sometimes you just need to get people out of the way. So, for example, someone gets killed and their bff gets tortured over the same thing. Killed person can, upon return, feel sympathy for tortured person, but tortured person wouldn't want to further traumatize killed person by giving them the details. And killed person would, frankly, just have too accept that. Because it's the rules. But it's EVERYONE'S rules, and someday it will be in your favor too. Stay strong, people!

2. 48 hours seems sufficient to me for a healing; ideally it would give players a chance to "prepare" for this holy miraculous healing event. Maybe collect ritual components, that sorta thing.

3. While I suppose it shouldn't be considered a "rule" anyone who maims someone beyond being able to function should be immediately shat upon by everyone else. There's no reason to take both eyes when just the one would get the point across that you're pissed. If you do this, you've forgotten the spirit of the game, which is to have fun and make the game fun for everyone else, too!

4. Back when I was kid, only mages had the ability to scry. Now everyone does. It's gotten a bit stupid, in my opinion. But honestly with a playerbase this small, I do not see how it would be possible for there to be secretive roleplay beyond having powerful no-scry locations available. I know there has been at least one player house that had a no-scry room - not sure how strong the wards were (but I never managed to break through them..). Maybe a total-no-scry (maybe like a 2% chance it can be broken through) device could be a Klauth item, or maybe no-questions-asked-no-scry-rooms can be available for rent for an ungodly amount of gold, experience, first born and favorite limb.


Last edited by ViolaRose on Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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xnithi



Joined: 25 Oct 2017
Posts: 57
Location: Texas, y'all

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think both eyes take away from rp unless they are a fighter who can't get blindfight anytime soon. And it could be granted if they aren't healed. If they will be healed, they can rp a couple of days just fine.

Tongues are probably bad for a spellcaster, unless they have a way to communicate telepathically without components. Even then, as long as they are released in or near a central, safe area, they can write notes and be mute for a couple if days.

I thinking removing 1 major ability is fine, even if it removes combat, especially if you push the time down. But you should probably get player permission. If someone favors combat over rp, they're going to be pissed. Someone like me, who favors rp over combat, could suffer through tha tine period.

Maybe create items that can be purchased that block scrying and detect invisibility for a time period? Should last longer than spells, if it is going to be worth buying, and should be expensive. And perhaps difficult to purchase. A thieves guild item, probably, and you have to contact or be a thief ti purchase ine. Aka, black market. I would hope that thieves take a large finders fee, and non thieves don't know the real price.

As for not seeking justice... Not sure how that should be done. A promise not to seek justice can work, but they will still hate abd try to undermine the other character. Which nay be fine, I haven't played long enough ti know if that helps or hurts rp. Not seeking justice should go for the enture event. YOLou can't get justice fir ither victims, either. I think you should be able to discuss it, though. But you cannot encourage people to take revenge in your behalf. If your friends decide to be angry, that's in them. But no "I wish they were dead", wink wink, budge nudge. And no bounties or outright asking someone ti murder or harm them. I also think that the whole event should be forgotten, still. I think you shoukd know that you died, but inly remember up to the scene that leads to the pk. If someone tells you Mr. Evilkillsalot is at the bar, and you go there to fight him and get murdered, you shouldn't remember anything up to the point someone came to tell you.
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xnithi



Joined: 25 Oct 2017
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Location: Texas, y'all

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As an Oghmanyte, not telling someone, especially if close tome, that I watched them be murdered is hard to do, rp wise. It would be against my charge to withhold information like that. However, them and maybe even witnesses being unable to get revenge seems fair. But being able to talk about it and tell others seems important to rp. Someone gets murdered, and nothing happens? Doesn’t sound right. It should cause waves. But nit immediate retribution, and not by the victims, unless they have a completely unrelated reason to justify it, and it is passed, say, a month since the event.

I agree with everything else Viola said that didn't contradict my previous reply.
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ViolaRose



Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 113

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it is more than fair for anyone who survived the event to get revenge. It can be discussed among friends, but as soon as the dead person shows up to the party, out of respect for the feelings of the deceased, everyone should find something else to talk about.

The victim should not want to know what this blankness in their mind is (a mercy from the Gods!), and it would be considered taboo to tell them because of the trauma it would induce to a mere mortal to realize they were dead, and now they're not.

(Of course death gets confusing in this manner because when we're killed by a mob, that too is a death, and not forgotten. Personally I've always tried to play that off as being "mortally wounded but not quite dead")
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xnithi



Joined: 25 Oct 2017
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Location: Texas, y'all

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not if the dead and/or another person is an Oghmanyte. It's hard to be vague about recent events ooc, but such a situation happened, where one was forbidden to perpetuate falsehoods or hold back information, and the recebtly dead worshipped knowledgex and also believed that knowledge should not be withheld. RP wise, that would mean that discussing it with the recently deceased would be morally righteous. However, perhaps there should be an acceptable time limit before you discuss things with the recently dead? A week, maybe. And only if it would make rp sense. Someone who could ic lie might indeed wish to withhold information. Ithers might want to torture the victim with that knowledge. But either way, at least a week before someone can tell them. Saving knowledge until someine is mentally sound enough to recieve it seems acceptable even for an Oghmanyte.
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"[Aiden poses clinging to the ceiling like a gecko].
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Night screeches
Aiden drops down and lands on his feet lightly.
Night speaks softly: Why!?
Aiden smiles at Night."
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Vaser



Joined: 30 Aug 2016
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the past the deceased were expected to RP a sort of cognitive dissonance when confronted with their death, or details of it.

What this means is that the details would not make any sense to the deceased and that their mind would reject those details as nonsense. I have found that to be a good solution on both sides in the past.
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xnithi



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Location: Texas, y'all

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That sounds pretty fair. Allows people to talk about it, and to them about it, but they can't really grasp it, so no revenge. Sounds clean cut.
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Nienne
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Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Per Vaser - it would push the victim to insanity to remember dying. PTSD on traumatic events would be nothing to the mind compared to actually remembering your own death, and the potential terrors of the afterlife. The gods are merciful and place a haze over the minds of those they consider worthy enough to rebirth, as mortals simply cannot comprehend the event. To that end, the mind simply rebels when presented with the facts; if they're considered too deeply or strongly, it would send one into a spiral of madness.

To that end, even an Oghmanite should recognize this as a mercy from their deity - if their own god grants their followers this blessing, why would a priest countersay it? They may retain the knowledge, record the knowledge, tell someone else (not the victim) who may be able to do something about it. But they would certainly not disrespect their god, and allied gods, by going against their actions, lest they risk divine smackdown.

Also to that end, adventurers should have encountered this in others and have a general understanding not to speak of it before the victim if they're aware - who would risk breaking an ally's mind in telling them? Who would go against the edict of the gods in this? If someone thinks it's a good idea to tell the victims about their own deaths, maybe we need to lay down some divine retribution on that; the gods would not be pleased...

I'm aware that this is an IC justification to prevent OOC spirals of un-fun PK revenge. But think outside the box and there are just as many ways to make it work ICly as there are to say it doesn't work. Don't put yourself in a RP corner Smile
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kassius
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Joined: 17 Aug 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, since I opened this can of worms Razz I tend to do that as N tells me so often hahah. I want to ask some questions, because I'm less sure of where we stand than when I began my inquiry.

1. Biggest issue is how others handle the victim after death?

2. Do we want revenge pkilling back where it is a giant circle ie never ending?

3. Do we like/dislike what is in help pk interactions?

4. Why do we have multiple people saying it is like we are playing two different games? Is this in regards to PVP vs PVE?

Lastly, please read the helpfile I listed before commenting. No solutions are needed currently, lets just find the actual problem. I feel like maybe I was wrong and this isn't a rules issue. Maybe it is a individuals issue and that can't be fixed. Like I was told as a player once, sometimes ya wear your big boy pants and they rip and other times you wear them and they give you gold.. You just move on and deal with it, because its your big boy pants. I'm here to work through this with any players willing to help and admin is willing to listen to what we want and offer their feedback. They won't listen if we continue to complain in a giant never ending circle.

Kas
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xnithi



Joined: 25 Oct 2017
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Location: Texas, y'all

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. I like cognitive dissonance. It is very neat and tidy. And N, I thought it was Kelemvor that puts the haze on, not a personal god? Does that mean that goddless characters get permadeath or no haze? And Oghma isn't a good god, he's a neutral one. I kind of got the indication from that, and that he accepts evil clerics. Not trying to push back, as I can still retcon and not do it again in the future, but Sadhara has been struggling eith being truthful even when it hurts, so I will have ti work on her justifying lies to help people.

2. Definitely not. Just want to find a way that doesn't stretch rp too thin.

3. Yes, I think so. More could be added to it maybe, but I don't think anything needs to be removed.

4. I haven't been on here long enough to answer this. I roleplay adventuring, if in a party, and it blends into rp with others pretty smoothly.
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"[Aiden poses clinging to the ceiling like a gecko].
With a slight shimmer, Aiden is revealed to view.
Night screeches
Aiden drops down and lands on his feet lightly.
Night speaks softly: Why!?
Aiden smiles at Night."
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Tels



Joined: 24 Nov 2017
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's my thought trying to deal with concurrent plots and aftermath of being murdered,

1. If the person is murdered and unable to be ressurected, (not like anyone would allow it when offer a body is so easy), the killer and everyone involved believ that person to be truly dead so they are no longer recognizable anymore, the killers and associates would forget them, the victim would forget the killer and those involved, everyone has word so and so died, so they all forget them too. This includes witnesses, but perhaps not reaching third parties, who hardly know the person and rumors of death might just be heresay. Coding this would probly be a hassle but this shoulda been done a long time ago to cut back on harrassment and scrying after the fact. Maybe tying in with Saides suggestion of improving an ignore function, where basically these people wouldnt even see this person anymore even if they are standing there, but that could have weird situations too.

2. Revenge pk's for someone personal death are typically no nos due to the past, but coming back and finding friends tortured and hearing more about the evil things such and such are doiing, makes that just go right back to the reason things started in the first place usually, hardly just personal revenge at that point if you seek justice for others being harmed, depending on how much a person cares anyway. By pk interactions this means you already really hate this person, Vasers suggestion is you become a clouded moron in the presence of anything remotely connected, and another is fearing that person for whatever reason (which classes are fearless as well as some subraces making this kinda weird ground.) How to play this out involving multiple player pushed plots has not been easy. Also continued plot interaction by players, which can basically seemingly have no end I suppose you just avoid them at all costs forever then.

3. Due to these I can see why people that play good roles are basically gone, they get picked off and singled out, tortured maimed, and told they cant do anything about it, evil people continue on like they can just do whatever and noone could possibly stop em. Granted this was easier when there were more then one or two decent people in a world that promotes evil. And a player base of more than a handful most times.

4. Because this is affected by pkilling and such Flagging your level down is either just a written off risk, that well noone will ever do without constantly checking whos around or what for the ooc knowledge that so and so people arent gonna hunt you down while you try and encourage some newer adventurers to get involved in the game. So I suggested that since the game recognizes player vs player attacks, outside of parties, they would immediately scale back up, unless you would totally hold back all your strength as that guy that wants you dead shows up suddenly and punches you in the face. I know this has some code before combat rolls, such as alignment calls so its not impossible. Of course this needs to recognize accidental party attacks, you wouldnt immediately crush that level 12 mage for accidently singing you with scorcher if you were in a group, I always disliked that auto combat inside a party as it made no sense oocly or icly. Perfect caster only came about because people argued fodder would just constantly be destroyed by a mages own spells Id imagine.

Just my own hopefully constructive suggestions on what this entails from my point of view. Otherwise I'm all for permadeath becoming a viable thing, whether that multikills the player base to extinction or whatever. And none of this would be a concern on rules of how to act.
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Tels



Joined: 24 Nov 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Along with entailling interactions, some namecalling and spreading the word about what someones doing was hardly reason to actually murder them in the past, thats not really a thing anymore since enforcement is gone people dont actually need a reason now to murder whoever they please.

But ongoing with secretive RP< I am not sure what this is supposed to mean, but something similiar to how devices work maybe, creating areas that mirror but are "out of this plane" I'm not sure how devices act if you forcibly remove someone from one, they would probly just be stuck in place or worse, without creating a static location (because of course people would just wait at the entrance for you to leave and murder you then) or even wait inside for people to show up and kill them. These would have be items similiar to devices that actualy anti scry and anti teleport the affected alternate plane, I'm not sure if device areas are actually clones of lassoed rooms created on load or what, but if they werent tethered to a location and just did something similiar by sucking the party into a new place no matter where they are would maybe work. Soon as I saw pocket dimensions I thought of planewalker epic class, how they created a psuedo plane that grows as they get more powerful, could be a similiar sort of thing. Which almost ties into a post I say Saide mention some time ago about saving temporary areas, like tents and such. Just ideas I guess, it's hard to offer up something that couldnt be downright abused ridiculously, I was hard pressed to load an old knight to find he couldnt have his weapons or armor back from his squire that carried them for him. I mean how many nobles would carry their lance all the time, icly, not him, it was his peons job. Anyway getting off track, that's my two cents on privacy if that's a possibility.
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Nienne
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I know Oghma is neutral, doesn't really have bearing on the question Smile No real clarification has been given on which god is responsible, but I would expect Kelemvor (given his general oversight of death, and the same effect to the godless, albeit at higher strain to their person). As mere mortals it's hardly something most PCs would know IG anyway, these are 'higher mysteries'. It's known between Kelemvor and one's own deity's intercession that adventurers can be returned - so it would be expected either way to be part of that process.

At this point I don't feel it's a good idea to make changes to this situation, and I do expect players to include this as part of their interaction - if revenge killings are happening, law should be notified & do expect some kind of divine smackdown. There are other ideas in the works on our side, but it will likely be at least a few months before they're feasible to implement, as we're dealing with other concerns as higher priority. So status quo on this particular item for now; please refer to Kassius' first post for clear-cut points to follow.
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ViolaRose



Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 113

PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tels wrote:

If the person is murdered and unable to be ressurected, (not like anyone would allow it when offer a body is so easy), the killer and everyone involved believ that person to be truly dead so they are no longer recognizable anymore, the killers and associates would forget them, the victim would forget the killer and those involved, everyone has word so and so died, so they all forget them too. This includes witnesses, but perhaps not reaching third parties, who hardly know the person and rumors of death might just be heresay. Coding this would probly be a hassle but this shoulda been done a long time ago to cut back on harrassment and scrying after the fact. Maybe tying in with Saides suggestion of improving an ignore function, where basically these people wouldnt even see this person anymore even if they are standing there, but that could have weird situations too.


While I think this is a decent idea in theory, I think players stand to lose too much, and you might as well just implement permadeath. This would knock players out of plots, out of friendships, relationships, home ownership, etc., and not only would that suck, I just think it would be quite impossible to roleplay.

Tels wrote:

2. Revenge pk's for someone personal death are typically no nos due to the past, but coming back and finding friends tortured and hearing more about the evil things such and such are doiing, makes that just go right back to the reason things started in the first place usually, hardly just personal revenge at that point if you seek justice for others being harmed, depending on how much a person cares anyway.


So let's say you're hunting A and B. You kill A. You continue to try to kill B, and suddenly there's A again, defending B! But weren't they supposed to be out of the way, I mean you KILLED them after all, and it's not fair that they're suddenly back again, right?

And that is why, I think, when someone is killed, they are henceforth considered dead for the duration of the murder plot.

Tels wrote:
Otherwise I'm all for permadeath becoming a viable thing, whether that multikills the player base to extinction or whatever. And none of this would be a concern on rules of how to act.


I've always thought permadeath was a terrible, horrible, no-good idea.. but I honestly think I could get on board with it these days. -IF- death only came with a wonderful, fantastic, fucking-awesome rp experience. And only if some amount of experience, etc., was passed on to the next rolled character.
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