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Level check/Pk restrictions
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ViolaRose



Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 113

PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem comes from when lowbies cannot even play their character without fear of punishment.

I recently played a character who followed a lawful philosophy. I was pk'ed by someone far above my range because of this philosophy. Said player could have - in the spirit of guidelines - dealt with me in other ways, knowing she was far out of range (On a side note, she didn't know I was so under her level, so the following would only apply if there was levelcheck "guidelines" rather than hard rules) she could have pulled me aside, beat me, sent me to conversion therapy, it wouldn't have changed my philosophy. Because I was a lawful character, it said so right there on my score card. And there was literally nothing I could do about the situation because I was a lowbie in a sea of lawful-hating level 50 players.

I couldn't very well complain because there's nothing to protect players in this situation. No rules were broken. The harassment didn't end with death, it started again as soon as the pk flag vanished. And why shouldn't it? I was still the same character struggling to tell my story. In my experience, it was easier to just quit playing rather than deal with being kicked down every time my pk flag vanished.

And so I do disagree that allowing lower leveled players to be preyed on just for being the character they want to play encourages roleplay.

I mean maybe we can all be adults here, and treat others as we'd like to be treated. Many players who were accustomed to levelcheck as a rule do seem to follow it still, as a guideline. Others not so much. Keeping it as a guideline rather than a rule, I feel, would lead to more work from the imms who don't really have time to deal with these disputes and could instead have a clear line of right vs wrong, laid out. But maybe not.

Anyhow, in whatever form it comes, I'd be happy just to have the command back so I know who I can party with, and who I can fight with, even if it's not writ in stone.
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Gia



Joined: 03 Feb 2017
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I honestly think our player-base is mature enough to handle a guide-line, provided everyone knows and understands it in the first place and we have a very clear reminder built into the potential level-check command. Any new players joining us, will know the norm from the get go and most likely adapt. If I’m wrong, then that can certainly be changed in the future.


As for not being able to develop characters before level 50, I simply have to disagree with those that claim that. My current main was level 20-25 during the entire Elemental Reaver Plot, and it was fine. She is still not level 50, and it is fine. Both of the alts I played last year did a ton of rp, character development and minor hostile interactions without ever making it past level 30. It was fine. Yes, if we know there are people out there who are exceptionally dangerous, we have to be cleverer, more careful and more charming. We might have to tip-toe around certain antagonists, but that’s an integral part of a character’s development. If an evil wants to do evil acts early on, he/she just has to be very, very clever about it!


Being a slow leveler myself, I do think it would be great if most people leveled slower, but I think the answer lays in rewards rather than restrictions. This has been discussed before and there were a lot of great options, like boosts based on relative play-time in each tier, etc. That is a digression, but I just want to point out I am not opposed to the goal, just the restriction.


Edit: I did not see Viola Rose's post before writing this and I want to respond:

That situation sounds like it sucked. I do not think it should have happened, and maybe it would not have if the high-level character had a clear set of guide-lines to follow. In these situations, I think it is entirely feasible to mail the “harasser” in question and ask them to please give you some space because getting killed repeatedly just is not fun. If -most- people ignore such a request, then I am wrong and we might need the hard rule.
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Mikyn



Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure that the anecdotal evidence here really proves that people can use "common sense" and "maturity" to help here. When everyone is busy being friends, this is all a non-issue.

I put a lot of time and thought into my last character and his background. And when I brought that ball of conflict and player interaction to the game, I was rewarded with a 20 minute discussion and then killed out of play. Meanwhile, the rest of the players took that ball and went to have a lot of fun with it. What the current system taught me is that I shouldn't bother with putting much thought or effort into it. I've talked with one of the parties involved and we're fine now, but that doesn't change the lesson learned.

The game is still supposed to be RP encouraged, but it is failing in that regard. We need to give low level characters a chance to grow and tell their stories, because jumping straight to max level in a week like the norm now only creates hollow characters with no depth. There no is vested interest in them.
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Aunuit



Joined: 14 Jul 2014
Posts: 10
Location: oregon

PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m sure this comes as no shock but I also support having levelcheck reinstated. I don’t think the playerbase of any game, including our own, can be trusted not to abuse a system lacking checks and balances.

I do also agree that a low level character should have to tiptoe around a high level with opposing views. Obviously if you’re going to throw your opposing views in their face and/or disrespect them, there should be consequences. That being said there was a time when high level players were discouraged from imposing themselves on low level players to the point where they felt they could not even develop their concepts without getting killed over and over. It has always been against the spirit of the game (well, since I started playing around 2005, I know old school SG was a shit show of no/awful roleplay and multikilling) to kill a character and then sit on their pk flag until you’re able to turn around and harass/pk that person again.
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Uriel



Joined: 09 Dec 2013
Posts: 145
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Highbies picking on lowbies is as old as the game; we used to have assassins and LAW bounties for exactly that reason. I really like the direction Saide has taken things, with more mechanical rules and less decision load on imms.

I do like players being able to opt out of PK until they feel comfortable.

If a player opts into PK, perhaps you could have a mechanical rule that enforces levelcheck. To keep the RP reasonable a highbie could smack a lowbie that stuns + 5hp damage to indicate to the lowbie that they should move along, something a little more threatening than the threaten command Smile
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Mikyn



Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Myrk, I'm not sure how's that's really so different from reinstating the old levelcheck and threaten commands? It's not that people want a league for PK just so they can fight for the fun of it.

I think the main concern is that high level players, especially those who can't find conflict or drama with their current peers, want to jump in on the events going on with the lower level players. But the moment those high levels players get involved, the drama/rp/conflict becomes moot and is dead. There's no room for growth or roleplay because the highbie just steamrolls everything involved. So not only is all the time and effort wasted, but the lowbie is then forced to powerlevel to try to protect themselves. And then they lose that period where a character CAN grow and develop, and so it just repeats the cycle.
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Uriel



Joined: 09 Dec 2013
Posts: 145
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hear you Mikyn, it's a fair point regarding highbies steamrolling. I remember I had a L15 who got 1-shot killed by a L40+ in Stellar castle quest area (I almost had it solved) and then forcibly resurrected and told that I had to RP with this guy. (BTW this is how we ended up with players having the option of whether they want to be resurrected!) I threw a fit and that wasn't good either Smile

On your question regarding how a league or a mechanical rule would be different than reinstating levelcheck + threaten...

It's just that I would prefer no pkmails, no avmails about PK. Discuss lines are terrible, nobody feels good about them. A hardcode rule means that imms can focus on plots or on coding, and nobody feels bad b/c it's just how the game works. That's something I really appreciate about the new direction N and Saide made.
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Mikyn



Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can agree that finding a method that prevents additional paperwork for the imms is ideal, I don't want to add to burnout either. I think a lot of the confusion from previous levelcheck issues was due to low level players wanting to suspend their levelcheck protection in order to have relationships with much more powerful players. There was a slew of rules regarding when levelcheck was effectively dropped, because someone did something or was involved in something. A lot of that could be forestalled if you take out exceptions and keep levelcheck simple: You cannot attack people outside of your levelcheck, and you cannot develop a relationship with people outside of your levelcheck. There are plenty of reasons (They're not worth my time, I don't want to risk them becoming targets of my enemies, they can't possibly understand what I've been through, etc) to explain that in-game and in-character.

With threaten, you give the high level player a tool to warn a lowbie, and if they disregard it, then they get smacked. With the way pk automatically generates a log, maybe it can be set to also log whenever a threaten command is used in case Law needs to review it, but that would be a fringe case.
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xnithi



Joined: 25 Oct 2017
Posts: 57
Location: Texas, y'all

PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given with how many people like to start new alts and there are few people who still use their character long after reaching level 50, preventing highbies from RPing with lowbies cuts off a lot of rp. It also encourages frequent alting. Alting is not bad in and of itself, and I have 2-3 characters to suit plot or mood. But ditching a character just to start a new one makes ongoing relationships and long lasting plots hard to manage. You get a couple of weeks of rp, and then that character is gone and replaced. While alting can be a fun way to explore and enjoy multiple aspects and views of the game, and I am very glad we have it, I don't think we should actively encourage frequent alting and rolling new characters, either.

So, why don't the level 50s just stick with other highbies? The problem with hitting the roof, as I've found with Liz (she leveled quickly, but that was apropos to her character, not because I'm just a power leveller, and I put in a lot of rp as well), is that a status quo is established and then just... stagnates. We know we can't kill that guy, and that chick can't handle me. When there's nothing more to climb for, it's hard to encourage change and rp. If you can't change the status quo with magical or physical power alome, another way is through rp. New blood (a reason why alting is not bad, as we rarely ever get real new blood) can shake things up, change the order of things, change alliances and relationships, and so on. So, I think preventing interactions between highbies and lowbies is bad. Giving strong guidelines allows everyone to benefit from rp, while reminding people to, frankly, not be bullies. And if someone insists on being a bully, we do not tolerate it.

Additionally, I don't know how the threat command worked. I wasn't here when that was a thing. But what Uriel suggests sounds good, especially if it works with a PK flag. That allows people to keep their flag and be more daring, as highbies can actually do something to them to inspire fear, without relying on emote alone, when can fall flat, and also isn't straight up PK. Also, since, again, I wasn't here for levelcheck, does it show up by people's name the same way that a PK flag does? Being able to walk into a room an know who your character should recognize as not worth your time or beneath you is a very useful aspect of PK flags. I find it useful for determining who to pickpocket, for example, and who not to immediately view as a threat. In fact, it encourages mentorship behaviors, for me, as Liz wants more allies and less enemies when they grow stronger.

I ended up rambling, but yeah. I think preventing highbie/lowbie rp would kill the interest in maintaining a high level character, as the non-rp factors of the game are less important, and the rp with other high level characters gets stagnant with the same highbies playing every day, with the same goals and relationships as before. That's not to say that highbies can't rp without lowbies, the ones I have seen on are good at coming up with new rp, but it still limits them.

I do see why highbies bullying is a problem, and I don't have any experience on how a levelcheck guideline would not help, as my insight into that kind of relationship is limited. So, I recognize that I simply don't get jsut how big of a problem it may be. But, from where I'm standing, a visible guideline is sufficient.
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Gia



Joined: 03 Feb 2017
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Mikyn wrote: You cannot attack people outside of your levelcheck, and you cannot develop a relationship with people outside of your levelcheck.


As a European player trying very hard to maintain a healthy sleep cycle (and failing), that rule would effectively cut my number of opportunities for meaningful RP down to 0 while levelling a new character. The player base is simply too small, especially in Europe, to support dividing RP into level brackets. In that regard, the scale down tool is excellent, because it provides me with partying opportunities I would not otherwise have. However, if I cannot develop relationships with people outside my bracket, that would also mean I shouldn’t adventure with them, which again leaves me with very few options but grinding.

Quote:
Uriel wrote: It's just that I would prefer no pkmails, no avmails about PK. Discuss lines are terrible, nobody feels good about them. A hardcode rule means that imms can focus on plots or on coding, and nobody feels bad b/c it's just how the game works. That's something I really appreciate about the new direction N and Saide made.


That is what I am trying to avoid with a general guide-line as opposed to a rule, Uriel. If it is a guide-line, you do not need any of that stuff, because we wouldn’t be breaking any rules. I know that everyone who has responded to this thread would be mature enough to follow a guide-line, because I have lost PK’s to most of you. However, I have an alternative suggestion below.

Quote:
Mikyn wrote: There's no room for growth or roleplay because the highbie just steamrolls everything involved.


When someone kills you out of the blue, with no real RP, it is annoying and sometimes infuriating. I don’t really care if this person is level 50 or not, it still sucks. If you rp with someone, however, and that leads to an attack, and that attack further develops your character, then it’s great, regardless of their initial level. Birdie would have had an entirely different character arch without Belen’s and Naeli’s harassment or Ryzan’s … uh … attempt at diplomacy when she was still a lowbie. She didn’t stand a chance against any of you, and you let her live and that was awesome. She, in turn, did the same to other PC’s when she was in a position to do so. Can we get back to that, somehow?

Is it the actual attack you want to prevent, Mikyn, or the PK death? If it is the death, can we instead make it a rule that:

- If someone is below your levelcheck, you cannot initiate hostilities, but you can respond to any hostile situation (including a kidnapping/attack on a city etc).
- You cannot kill the lowbie player once hostilities are afoot, but you can get creative in your punishment, thus keeping RP alive. (Of course, if someone would rather get killed than maimed, the lowbie character could just ask for death OOCily).


Could we also consider a “subdue” command as an alternative to “hit”? As an example: if you take someone down and you want to keep them from engaging in PK for a while, you can use the “subdue” command. This would effectively give them a no pk-flag for a certain amount of time and represent them having been thoroughly trounced and needing to recover. This could be roleplayed out, faded to black or simply come as the result of a beating (read: attack).
I think that it should have a timer though, so you type the command “subdue” and if they manage to escape before a short amount of time (couple of combat rounds), it would not take effect. Additionally, there could be a timer for when you’re able to subdue a particular individual again, to avoid “multi-subdues”. This could also be used when there are several people ganging up on one character. That way, you could effectively stop one and one person from attacking you, provided you got the opportunity for the command to take effect, without having to type "hit" to protect yourself.

Sleep now.

Gia.
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Nienne
Immortal


Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 2764
Location: Aussieland

PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well this got far more complicated than I feel it probably needs to be. I'm going to have to take a better look at it later as my weekend's coming to an end (and my weeks at present are far too hectic to get far on major discussions). I'll see if I can think of a decent midway solution & try to go from there. While I now understand why it was removed, I do feel the lack of levelcheck has contributed to the serious lack of non-max-level options, so I'm open to solutions.
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xnithi



Joined: 25 Oct 2017
Posts: 57
Location: Texas, y'all

PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I rather like Gia's suggestions, but I also worry about how easy or hard that is to code. If it's easy, then great, let's do it! The same for some of the other ideas. But I know that we don't exactly have a ton of wizzes available, and only one admin, so, assuming levelcheck is just reactivating or reintegrating code, other aspects may take a while. But, I do think these are good ideas, and ways to recognize level gaps and engage in meaningful hostilities without ruining the fun for others seem like fantastic additions to the game and would make the roleplaying experience richer.
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"[Aiden poses clinging to the ceiling like a gecko].
With a slight shimmer, Aiden is revealed to view.
Night screeches
Aiden drops down and lands on his feet lightly.
Night speaks softly: Why!?
Aiden smiles at Night."
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Tels



Joined: 24 Nov 2017
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Due to life the universe and everything lately, I haven't been around but I'd like to see level scaling reverted if you are by chance attacked while partying and interacting with lower levels, I had a personal stake in this opinion of course but it is beyond frustrating to be killed and ransacked if you happen to be working with lower levels. Levelcheck itself harbors some ooc knowledge of course, one being other than obvious gear that you'll know somewhat how powerful another person is without any actual interaction. Which in my thoughts needs to be determined through interactive means. Level scaling is an awesome tool Saide created and I believe adds a lot to the game to be able to create parties among varied levels.
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ballegator



Joined: 21 Jul 2015
Posts: 19
Location: Daytona Beach

PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is players taking advantage of the way things work in the game. If not for that, there would be no issues with this. I can tell you that at least a dozen times or more I tried the whole i'll-roleplay-a-nice-torture-session-and-then-let-them-go scenario when I was uber and they were a lot lower than me. Only to have a gang of five or more players hunt me down and slaughter me. What kind of roleplay of fear was that? I, for one, like the way it is now. You either remove the PK flag or you don't. If you're level 10, remove the flag and then piss off an uber, you know what's likely going to happen.

We, as individuals, need to start taking responsibility for the way we play our characters. Until then, I like the way this works. Just my two cents.
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ballegator



Joined: 21 Jul 2015
Posts: 19
Location: Daytona Beach

PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps, maybe, when a roleplay event is initiated, a set of level ranges can be determined. Everyone can still play in the event it's just that there are restrictions based on levels. I'm sure it's something relatively easy to code which would take imm interaction out of the picture.

For instance, Nienne sets up an event. She sets it for mid levels which means maybe levels 15-30? They reap the most benefit from it. Maybe levels 6-15 get a lot less since they're probably not as established as the mid levels and perhaps they can't be killed if they are actively involved in the whole thing. And on the other end, anyone over 30 gets a lot less. Perhaps they get incentives based on how they restrain themselves and help the plot rather than hinder. And they get severely penalized for killing anyone under 30 during the scenario.

So as i'm typing this i'm hearing people say "that's sounds like a TON of interaction by the imms which is what we're trying to deter". That's true. Unless you think outside the box. When we have a mud wide event, why can't we put it in a bio quest request type area? Anyone involved gets an orb or mass. If they want in, they use it. It stays in their inventory until the event is over. Everything occurs in this area. The area is already coded so you just have to make additions and changes that would flag people for certain actions etc. Imms are going to be monitoring things anyway.

I don't know, I'm just tired of seeing the same complaints. I see them from both angles and it's disheartening. I'm trying to find a solution and am finding it hard to put it in words. This proposed solution still doesn't cover every day interactions. So maybe I need to move this to the "Idea" section?
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