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Balance

 
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kellan



Joined: 27 Oct 2013
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:02 am    Post subject: Balance Reply with quote

Hey Guys,

I hope that I'm not alone when I say that the balance with melee, especially dual wielding is quite concerning. I understand that we want to make all types of melee fun, but I don't feel there was a problem before the changes to make damage higher. It seems to have thrown the game way way outta whack.

I've been able to do the follow things and I don't think it has to do with the weakness of mobs, it has to do with the damage output of melee, it is so high that I'm sure it is why we see so few casters these days.

Know multiple melee who have done one of these if not both
1. Solo Ibby
2. Solo Arkhon
3. 2 or 3 person party to kill Intruder
4. 4 person party with one being 30 to kill Klauth

Along these lines there is a few classes that need to be looked at being Pyswarrior and Barbarian. They both seem quite overkill, I haven't played psywarrior, just been in PK with one and it was crazy. Barbarian is also insane and I believe the solution to barbarian is to turn down it's rage as players multi-class, adding it on to another class makes that character OP to almost 90's thief level, it is just crazy.

I hope that these get some serious attention soon, because anyone playing a caster will have a very difficult time surviving PK with melee.

Thank you
Alzar
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Nienne
Immortal


Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 2653
Location: Aussieland

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All good - as I mentioned to you on HM last week, we're fairly aware barbarian is a little OTT & needs tuning. Psywarrior we've been aware of a while, but obviously with the imm base basically on strike for a few months, that didn't go anywhere fast. I'm really not across psionics in general, so that one's a little trickier for me to assess/fix properly. I think Saide has been working on damage tracking, so that it can be tweaked accordingly. As usual just a matter of when we have enough time to tune them reasonably, without giving them the nerfbat so hard they become useless. That's no fun for anyone either!

If you're playing these classes, feedback that has specifics on problems you may have noticed or particular abilities/stacking would be much more helpful - while letting us know the class is generally overpowered does help support what we already know, it doesn't really give us anything clear to work on without actually finding the time to playtest it ourselves. So if you have anything that may help on that count, feel free to send up & we'll see what we can do as we're able Smile
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kellan



Joined: 27 Oct 2013
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Psywarrior - Psywarriors seems to have EVERY good spell from every class combined with all the armor and tons of damage. I'd recommend thinning their spell list a little. They can heal, stun, get tons of buffs, teleport, and if I read it right telepathy too. They only have level 6 spells so it seems like a lot, keeping in mind I haven't played one yet, but from partying with one and being in pk they seem fairly unstoppable.

Barbarian - Barbarian's are uncivilized creatures, but can dual with a fighter at no cost it seems like. I'd put in some type of disadvantage where if they dual with a trained ranger or fighter their abilities aren't what they were as a single class, kind of how multi-class casters work or stab for example. On a single basis I'd look at turning down rage. Having a 30 strength and con plus damage and attack bonuses that stack is INSANE. It is like carrying around 4 or 5 emerald gems plus I get bonuses on top from my gem and equipment, which just makes it worse. I seem to get a lot more attacks with rage too and not take as much damage while raged. There also seems to be a bug with rage where if you die and it is actitivated when you return or pray an deactivate it, your stats drop by whatever the rage was forcing log out. Another bug seems to be that you absorb health, which can sometimes put you over 100 percent, sometimes I have 1000 hps from absorbing heals or damage, not exactly sure what does it, I am not great at recreating this event, but it does happen quite often, just not so high, maybe 30 or 40 hps. This is a fine line though, because I played a Barbarian before Octo tweaked them and they were AWFUL, I kept dying and the changes are good in some ways as it make the class appealing. I'd consider making it so their rp matches their mechanics and being that they are usually uncivilized have time spent within cities effect when and how often they can "rage" granted that is a different take on gaming mechanics, but it is something that might work.

DAMAGE OUTPUT IN GENERAL

When Phade and I fought Intruder last night. I did so mostly without rage as I couldn't rage until Intruder was at near death. I did fine, I had to drink more vials than when raged, but it wasn't so noticeable that I think the problem ONLY resides within Barbarian and Psywarrior. The sheer damage and POWER RANGER version of SG that we are currently on is frightening. Thieves and casters have been left in the dust. I personally don't think yanking them up to meet melee is the way to go, I believe it'd be better to reduce melee's damage output and balance monsters to that. However, in general it seems that if you tune us down, some monsters become undoable without massive parties, which is stupidly hard to find. I understand the crossroads you're at and will help test anything needed.

Alzar
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Kellan, unless you know what the monster baseline is, you can't really tell whether something is overpowered or underpowered. All you can tell is that one of them is underpowered, overpowered or perhaps eve broken. Which is to say its situational opness and upness are at a such extreme that it is broken.

Balance works by establishing a baseline formulae, usually a baseline enemy formula. This is baseline attack, defense, hp, and we'll say a once every three round stun is the base line special ability for this level.

And from that you work out a base line player character for the same level based on how much effort it should take the player on average to kill this baseline monster.. How many rounds and how much damage the player character should take.

Now with that done you start creating your deviations. Monsters tend to just deviate on a tit for tat basis. If you gain +1 attack then it must lose -1 in two of its defenses ect. Regardless they tend to remain on a pretty flat bell curve.

Player classes are trickier, as in order to achieve sufficient variety, one needs to allow the classes to range along a sharp bell curve that still gets them close to the baseline average.

spell casters for instance when not using their spells fall sharply to the left of the baseline average. But when they are using their spells fall to the right. To establish whether or not they are at baseline you have to try to estimate the risk to them due to defensive spells failing at a bad point. Which is more an art than a science.

The need for spell preparation although an inconvenience isn't much of a balance issue as they all get stuff like rope trick to protect them during reparation and spells are highly unlikely to run out during a fight. So you balance this non-strategic inconvenience with non or minimally strategic benefit. (like all the utility spells)

So although it seems like melee characters are overpowered, it could very well be one of a few alternatives. Since monsters have been buffed a bit in the recent years, perhaps spellcasters really are underpowered. Or maybe Melee is way overpowere, monsters are a little overpowered and spellcasters are a little underpowered, or maybe you are right.
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