Shadowgate

Verbannon · Joined: 30 Sep 2013 Posts: 398

Thats not a counter argument to what I said. If you dont discuss and explain personally that their reason is not good enough before administering punishment. Then the player will feel unjustly singled out.

And possibly even more important, one of the most Critical jobs of a DM at the beginning of a campaign (Or in this case, a new character) is to learn and understand their player's desired character concept and work with them to adjust it to fit the setting.

Failure to do so is as much bad DMing as the players are bad RPing. And as an added bonus, doing so makes the DM's job much easier down the line for like four different reasons.
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ViolaRose · Joined: 20 Apr 2015 Posts: 113

Those were my thoughts in general, and not a counter-argument to you specifically. But... what DMs do you speak of?

The imms no longer believe in telling people how they should or shouldn't play their characters, which is why this is a plea for anyone interested in roleplaying to simply hold themselves accountable for their own roleplay.

beshaba · Joined: 02 Aug 2011 Posts: 55

Uriel · Joined: 09 Dec 2013 Posts: 145 Location: Chicago

Verbannon · Joined: 30 Sep 2013 Posts: 398

There are far more obstacles, especially to new players, triply so if they are new to RP than you are accounting for. And if they are used to later editions of D&D like 5e or god forbid, 4e then you'll haveca substantial shock. The existing help files are so far from adequate its not funny.

And it is a DM's job. Or in rare cases,a DM might, as the books say, "set a new player in between the rules lawyer and the Storyteller so they can teach them all the workings of the game and setting freeing up your time."

Lets just take a simple example. Player makes an elf, good aligned. And wants his elf to be genuinely good. He makes his elf a cleric of helm because she envisioms a simple concept. Elf is chosen because she reflexively tries to avoid the super generic human. His elf then is planned to be a protecter guided by centuries of carefully gathered wisdom, and understands the true value of life ect.

Before even getting into active roleplay this concept is not in keeping with Shadowgate, but there really is no way for the player to realize this.Characters should always start out inexperienced so its the game not their background that ultimately shapes them, and Elves generally should be insular and not give a crap about protecting anything except elves.

And once in active roleplay, the player's elf meets a Drow, starts,out untrusting and all, but when the Drow doesnt immedietely start bathing in the blood if the innocent, decides the good alignned thing would be to give the Drow the benefit of the doubt.Rather than being a racist.

So now an Avatar sees this and has the Elves start treating her as an enemy for the Drow and a traitor for not focusing wholly on protecting the elves, npc clerics of his faith start deriding him both for not smiting that Drow on sight and also for being a selfish elf, and everybody treats his character like an inexperienced child even though he selected middle aged.

Now the player, either doubles down, not getting the point and decides he is a Matyr for true good. Or gets oocly upset as everything goes wrong, she doesnt know why and he is sure its unfair because he had no way of knowing. And leaves Shadowgate.

Now maybe you feel that was a thin skinned reaction and good riddance. But if you do, thats an a-hole reaction. What you should have done is the following.

As soon as you see the bad RP, talk to the player, explain that the racial emnity between Drow and Elves is powerful and should not be dismissed except under extraordinary circumstance, the kind that can only occur during game play and not in the back ground . Which his character doesnt qualify. That Elves are insular and dont see much point in spending their energies protecting the short lived races without either extraordinary conviction, possibly something backgroundable, but if so should be a major part of the background to explain why they have this conviction or as part of youthful idealism. And that any character starting out, is just that, starting out. A middle aged elf for instance would mean a character that has spent centuries at non adventuring activities, like meditating the meaning of life or something.And would require an unusual event to spur this new life. And it would be a new life. Since you are required to play your level.

And then the Avatar could listen to the player put forth alternative ideas and pitch a,few suggestions of its own. And in the end one is settled upon.

And in this way the player's character is brought in line, the player isnt frustrated and turned away by being punished for her ignorance. And the Avatar isn't sitting behind the scenes fuming over this player's percieved disrespect to the game.

If you dont want to do it yourself, post trouble players on the HM boards so we can talk to them before you drive away another player
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beshaba · Joined: 02 Aug 2011 Posts: 55

Verbannon · Joined: 30 Sep 2013 Posts: 398

beshaba · Joined: 02 Aug 2011 Posts: 55

If you think discussing it with a player is the way to go, how did that go when you were approached with your current character? You complained about it at length over the lines and then promptly ignored everything. And still, you're missing my point.

If you want to RP, then do it properly. The help files are there as well as ooc/newbie lines if people need help or clarification.

Verbannon · Joined: 30 Sep 2013 Posts: 398

With my character I recall three particular instances of imms talking to me. First was a message to me that read like a pre-written standardized thing, and I couldnt get any replies on it regarding practical application. Second was,a suggestion I delete my character and start over. And the other two was really an unending cycle of suggestions for me to start my own plot and not do my own plot but suppport someone's else.

Ultimately only Alzar, Belendithas, Circe and Nienne ever actually tried to discuss and explain things to me.

And your point is... how do I word this. Its not wrong, but its in my opinion, insuffecient to address to RP problem.
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Verbannon · Joined: 30 Sep 2013 Posts: 398

I really cannot see myself ever refusing an attempt to help then complaining about it.
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Verbannon · Joined: 30 Sep 2013 Posts: 398

I think a tone reset is needed now. Things,are getting personal now. And using me as an example cant work because I am not an unbiased example. I dont remember what you are referring to, but since I am not unbiased in relation to myself, from your perspective I could sound like I am lying, do remember it but am claiming I dont remember as an evasion.
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cyric · Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:40 am Post subject:

Well, that escalated.

Here's how it should go IMO:
1. Ic interactions appropriate for the unorthodox situation the players are creating. I.e. Comments from other patrons of the bar, a band of rowdy humans enter and start being racist/aggressive towards the drow, etc. this should follow to its logical conclusion, whichever way the players go. Maybe they leave, maybe they slaughter everyone, and interactions continue from there.
2. Ooc discussion of what's appropriate or normal. Explanation that unorthodox rp will not be easy and whether this is the road the player really wants to follow. Listing of possible consequences ic so they're not a surprise later. (Bounties posted, rumors spread, ostracizing from organizations or cities, loss of spells, assassins, threats against family and allies, burglary, trumped up charges, etc.)
3. Follow through and make life difficult for them, reward them if he rp is good and they stay the course, but make them give something significant up.

Verbannon · Joined: 30 Sep 2013 Posts: 398

Yeah what Cyric said. Immediate RP should of course be proper in relation to the act. But then there shouod be ooc discussion so the player has,a chance to change before anything major and irrevereable occurs.
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ViolaRose · Joined: 20 Apr 2015 Posts: 113

Well that would be wonderful! But, again, I'll reiterate that this is no longer the Shadowgate we once knew. It is no longer considered fashionable to tell anyone how they should be roleplaying. There are no avatars directing the cast, and believe me, the imms are well aware of the current state of characters. At best, I've been told to make a post voicing my complaints. Also, the characters currently in question will be the first ones to tell you that they're the exceptions of their races and religions, so it's no surprise to them. Carry on, kiddos.

Perhaps we can hope this post would at least encourage future players to consider their character choices.

So if everyone could just take a little bit of responsibility and read the help files, and understand the expectations and limitations of their race, religion, etc., that would be great!

Thanks Smile

Ares · Immortal Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1006

There's nothing wrong with you using IC means to persuade people to roleplay accordingly. If someone is doing something that would seem wrong in some way for the setting, then your character should act accordingly.