Shadowgate

Loki · Immortal Joined: 31 Jan 2008 Posts: 414

This is pretty rambly...

When I came back, or just before I came back I was warned that SG had changed, new leadership, new rules, and the term "No RP enforced" kept popping up. "Roleplay encouraged" popped up, and I learned that some players actually left because of this.

Now I played for awhile as a few toons and saw some changes, saw what I would think of as issues, but also saw that RP still had a chance if you gave people reason to slow down and talk.

Rooks and Kings was an extreme experiment. I forced people into a gradual and slowed character development. I did it for a reason. I saw the lack of RP not because of no RP, but because people saw prestige classes, and amazingness at the high levels and just went for it! It worked for the most part (I say most part because really I was left with 5 out of 10 players that had originally signed up.

So here we are though as I start a new plot. I want to get it out there what I think RP encouraged means.. what I expect.. and lets have a civil discussion

- The old guard's idea of RP enforcement sometimes hit the extremes.. "This race and class hates this. they all hate this and I dont care how much RP you have, you should hate it.. banhammer" That extreme doesn't encourage RP and it makes every wood elf look like every other wood elf, and every barbarian look like Krull the conqueror.

- To me RP enforcement means characters respecting the environment and world that has been created and building a rational character around it.

If you are good, you want to do good things, if you are evil you want to do evil things, if you are neutral you want everything to balance out.

Law loves order, chaos loves.. well chaos

If you are faithful and not clergy, you tip your hat to your god because they've had the most influence on you but hey, you might put a copper into other plates because gods are fickle things and you have a head to keep on your shoulders.

If you are faithful and clergy, that dogma is your bread, butter, shield and whip. But you also have a chance to push that dogma to an extreme, or to the centre.

You recognise that we cant code a response to everything and technically you can walk anywhere with impunity but at the same time you aren't a god. If you know you're hated in a militarised city with an army of templars and paladins, you're gonna get your butt handed to you

I recognise that you wont be the book version of a specific class, race, alignment, or archetype. You've found some pretty fun RP playing something fun, but YOU know that you should pcnote stuff to explain your history.

If you want to ignore RP and just power level to max, and you enjoy that.. Thats great, but RP begets RP, and I will spend more time with a lvl 10 toon that has RP'd their ass off and answer them in favour of the RPless powerleveler. (That does not include bugs, but mostly I cant fix the game breaking bugs)

Are my expectations out of line?
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Nienne · Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:05 pm Post subject:

This is basically my understanding and approach at this point. Happy to see everyone play as they like, but my RP focus always defers first to those who are already RP-centric (from the ground up, not just once they hit the max level).

saide · Immortal Joined: 18 Mar 2007 Posts: 395

This is my idea as well.

I also want to clarify that when I pushed for the idea of no longer RP enforced - I never ever intended for that to mean no RP - what I intended was twofold. First to take some of the burden off of our shoulders - so that we didn't have to continue to feel like babysitters - so that our developers could focus on developing for the game, our area builders on building for the game, and our avatars on providing interesting plots for the players of the game. Basically in years past what was enforced - what was considered RP - was subject to change - a great amount of it - so a lot of players ended up being excluded and a lot of immortals had absolutely no idea what the current rules were for a given situation.

The second part was to make it so that anyone would feel welcomed - if you wanted to power level - go for it - if you were not very good at RP - then that was okay - my hope was that along the way you would learn to fall in love with the RP that has made ShadowGate a grand experience. I personally like to power level - depending on the character - and I enjoy RP - also depending on the character - it is not too fun to be the only good or the only evil guy when there are groups of opposite aligned folk against you - at least not long term. In the short term and in some cases it is a lot of fun (for some at least). I also recognize that fun is a very subjective term.

Now, it is pretty easy to see that what I intended is not exactly the result that we have received. A lot of players have walked away - though I would argue that before this change that had already happened anyway.

I do not intend to give up any time soon though - all in all I think we are ahead of where we once were - we have a game that is much more open to players and ideas - a group of immortals who are a lot more approachable and transparent - and at the ground a game that is actually fun to play.

I know we are far from perfect - there is a lot of work to be done and if nothing else, it is a process. I also want to point out that all of us are human so at times RL gets in the way of this process or we even just need to step away for our own sanity.

I also want to say if you manage to read all of this please know that I consider you a part of our community. I am glad that you are here. You are welcome to voice your concerns as long as you are willing to be open to negotiate. It's my sincere hope that we can continue to improve and create a game that people want to be a part of.

Nienne · Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:10 pm Post subject:

I feel like it was a step in the right direction, to allow people to play as they choose and remove a major cause of immortal burn-out at the same time. I think we just have a few more steps to take yet for RP-encouraged on the actual "encouragement" front. I do intend to look into some options on this longterm! In the interim Loki seems to be doing some pretty awesome plottage for those who are more story-inclined Smile

Sudelilah · Joined: 22 Apr 2017 Posts: 4 Location: Fort Worth, TX

I am going to tell you my perspective on this:

First of all, this mud is very top heavy with a small percentage of lower level players vs. high level players. That said, it's common for the lower level players to spend hours only doing the hack and slash for many, many levels.

When I first arrived at SG, within my first 10 levels I had one instance of a RP scenario when Bannic did a mini-plot with me in the goblin stronghold. It was a blast and my first indication of how players can, with the use of RP, determine an outcome of a scene. For the next 30-35 levels, it was 90% hack and slash. New players are not included very often in any RP plots because they don't know the areas, they aren't strong enough to be engaged in some scenes and are generally left to only interact with other players when there is a gathering at an inn or someplace similar.

That being said, only a small handful of players, took the time to engage with me, include me in adventures and generally gave me folk to hang out with. Sure, there were times when I met another older player who would give me grief about my hanging out with the "evil folk" but did those players take the time to give me reason not to? Did they show me around and "train" me on how to play my character's alignment, faith or stats? No, most of those who occasionally gave me grief were no where to be found after a few days. Those who took the time were consistent.

Now suddenly I made level +40 and I am given a part in a true "plot" and I feel like I am fumbling and awkward because up until then I haven't had any reason to do anything but hack and slash. I am learning to RP, but if I don't meet the expectations of others regarding some qualities they think I should have or actions I should be pursuing, try thinking about how much time any of us spend teaching newbies how to RP.

If you want more RP, it needs to start with the lower levels and not just be for the higher level players. I am not complaining, but I spent many lonely levels just hacking and slashing. Now I have my Archmage character who to some isn't "moody" enough, or isn't "arrogant" enough and yes, I still hang with those "evil folk" who turned out not to be so evil after all. I like who I am and though I still feel awkward with the RP, it's coming. It could have evolved earlier but it is what it is.
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Sudelilah

kassius · Site Admin Joined: 17 Aug 2017 Posts: 243

Sudelilah,

I agree a great deal with what you're saying. I do think we need to spend more time even as avatars/players and wizzes with lower level players. During my tenure as Alzar(player character) I would try to give lowbies fetch quests and RP. However, it is very difficult to be a level 40th (High Priest of Cyric) or now the max level being 50, which I was 40 at the time and find a way to RP within the confines of my character. For a player like myself, I am trying to always think how my character would handle each situation. Alzar won't even travel to places like Tabor. However, being a social game he did to help spur RP.

The reason I said the above, is I think that the arms race causes a lot of these issues. People being level 50 in 36 hours or 48 is quite nuts, maybe my estimation is off, but it feels like some people if trying could be 50 in no time at all, which leaves new players in the dust. I liked how Loki placed leveling caps for participating in his recent plot a few months ago. I don't know if that is the answer. I do agree wholeheartedly with what you're saying and don't have a solution. I know the awkwardness of being high level and evil trying to find a reason to RP with the new LG paladin.. Most of the time it comes across as the HIGH level places a boot firmly on the lowbies throat.

Next, I think you're doing fine and as we have discussed in the past there are a ton of different ways to be an archmage. On the flip side, I do think players have to take some responsibility for RPing by reading helpfiles or doing online investigation for alignment/stats/etc. Being evil and not acting evil isn't RP, its a chat room. It is fine and HIGHLY acceptable to be that way on SG. You don't have to RP at all, zero, zilch, I believe if that is the case you shouldn't even try as it gets confusing for those rping. I've discussed with Saide potential flags that allows people who want RP to be in it and to show only RP stuff, while people who don't would have access to continued OOC talk/ooc etc. Maybe that is to extreme, but it is something to consider. I've heard about this sort of solution working on other muds. We don't have to recreate the wheel, just improve on it Smile

Again, don't feel bad, you're trying and that is what counts, you are growing and that counts.. It takes years to get where some of the better Rper on the mud are and while the hardcore side of the mud can be dicks, it isn't your fault.

I've thought a lot lately and sometimes I think the mud going completely towards a none RP aspect would be easier. It is very difficult to handle plots with the varying degree of RP. The confusion between OOC and IC is a big deal too with whispers, mindnets, stuff being said that makes no sense or future references that sometimes I don't get, but either way RP encourage is where we are and it'll only get better if we all get better..

Kas

Gia · Joined: 03 Feb 2017 Posts: 58

Could we come up with a "buddy system”/"mentor system", in which true newbies (and semi-newbies if they feel like they need it) can be taken under the wing of an old character/player? They could make sure to spend at least a certain amount of time roleplaying together, questing, perhaps creating small mini-plots, like the one Sudelilah mentioned, so that the new player could learn the ropes through actual RP.

At the top of my head, I am thinking the old player could volunteer with a “mentor flag”. The new player could enter a “seeking mentor flag” and an imm could check for compatibility and bring them together.

Any type of RP would have to make IC sense, of course, but there are enough old players around to find a match for most types of newbies.
Gia.
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essyllis · Joined: 10 May 2014 Posts: 92

I am not against a buddy system, however I just feel it shouldn't be necessary :-/

However, I do understand why it is.
85% of every new characters created is a 'oldie'. whom we know will be lvl 30 within the week. Most of these chars won't really be RP'ing before they reach lvl 20+. This is my observations in any case Smile

But this does unfortunately breed the behavior described by Sudelilah.

Instead of only having your own personal imp when starting. I believe we should be better at all investing time and effort in true new players Smile

Now we're talking about RP. Some goodly coming up and complaining about someone hanging around the wrong crowd, and then just leaving them alone to fend for themselves, is kinda sad RPG. A paladin would not just scold the would-be hero to playing pokirr with the known thief. He would indeed protect him from such company. Or should anyway.

I admit the note about people complaining about you keeping the wrong company, and then just bolting and thereby 'forcing' them back to the same crowd in search of some RP, kinda struck home with me. I have most likely made myself guilty in the same, and will definitely make efforts to change that.

I'd hope that everyone would pitch in giving rare new people a good experience Smile

Lujke · Immortal Joined: 18 Nov 2006 Posts: 642

No-one should ever be scolded for playing Pokiir. Just saying.
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Nienne · Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:29 pm Post subject:

Would something like an option to flag yourself as a true newbie/wanting assistance be perhaps more helpful? Then other experienced players would know you're not just one of those guys rerolling who will be 30 in a week or whatever... It doesn't put an obligation on one person, but it makes you available to anyone around who can then know you may need the time or be interested in assistance.

Alternatively a flag for anyone, new or otherwise, noting they're seeking RP interactions & story development.

Mikyn · Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32

I would point out that the issue is that people can level to max in a week. Very few players take their time to figure out their character anymore and see how a player grows and becomes more complex, and just powerlevels instead. Yeah, I know, that's all legit now... but that comes at the expense of RP. And you can't call it RP when people wait until they're big badasses before they engage in it.

If new players aren't experiencing RP, it's because most of the players now put priority on levels and gear. And then level up an alt the next week, and another after that, because levels and gear don't make a character interesting.

ViolaRose · Joined: 20 Apr 2015 Posts: 113

Sudelilah · Joined: 22 Apr 2017 Posts: 4 Location: Fort Worth, TX

I have seen this mentioned more than once in these posts, that oldies can log an alt and max levels in a week. I'd like to know how that happens because I have an alt and I can't do it. Having an alt doesn't mean you don't need RP, I have started an alt and know nothing about that new character's abilities, nature, etc...so to me it's like learning all over again. Perhaps it's just me, being less than a year at SG. I believe I started last April. To me it's hard.
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Sudelilah

Gia · Joined: 03 Feb 2017 Posts: 58

Heh, don't worry too much about not being able to reach max level in two days, Lilah. I've been playing on and off since 2004 and i still cannot do it. And i don't like it when i try, I prefer to rp all the way.

I like the idea of newbie flags N mentioned better than i like my own idea. So, yes to that.
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