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Story Stew: LGBTQ in ShadowGate

 
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xnithi



Joined: 25 Oct 2017
Posts: 57
Location: Texas, y'all

PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:21 pm    Post subject: Story Stew: LGBTQ in ShadowGate Reply with quote

(See what I did there? Story Stew - Alphabet Soup? Do you get it? Do you ge-)

TL;DR at the bottom in pretty colors, since I know that this is a wall of text.

Playing a half-orc with a chip on her shoulder about how she's treated by lower and higher races alike, I often discuss or spark discussion on the lines about racism, and it's role in Shadowgate. Now, that could very well be it's own post, and I welcome someone to start one - I'm too tired to do much more than finish this and hit the hay (yes, despite popular misconception, I DO sleep).

But, it was eventually brought up that while racism is definitely a thing in Shadowgate, however it is treated to IC, the concepts of the LGBTQ community (I prefer MOGAI, but then I have to explain it to people, and it ends up being harder to use than the soup) seem rather undiscussed.

There are surely such people in SG, as there are certainly such players. But, what impact do they have on the world? What is their lore? How do various cultures treat them? Is it considered normal and unimportant in SG, or more bizarre than how people see it IRL?

I, myself, am nonbinary, and so it's not too surprising that my first character was, as well. Sadhara was born in and spent her younger years in Lirremar, of the Tsarven Empire. Lirremar is one of the closest to India in culture, though it has other strong influences as well, and is certainly not SG India. However, I used a lot of Indic aspects in forming her character.

India recognizes more than two genders, which are numerous and often region specific, but the most well known are hijra, who are usually born with a body we'd call male, and dress and act in a feminine fashion. They do, however, have their own specific culture and roles within Indian society, historically, and while some call themselves women, and could be classified as transwomen, their unique place in their culture causes others to say that they are not men, nor women.

So, I made up a cultural gender role for the Empire and Lirremar especially, that are called "dragonflies", because they can be pretty like a butterfly, but have a long, phallic body part. In those areas, they are considered normal, and not discriminated strongly against by natives, as they generally fill certain roles and no one really has time to care if you like to wear a sari when you're trying to survive a desert.

However, up "North" (Shadow, Dagger, etc.), this sort of thing is NOT normal, and perplexing. Sadhara learned the hard way, after she left the desert when she was younger, that it's best to make people aware when you can that you're not what they thing you are... especially when Sadhara looks so pretty naturally that one wouldn't guess even if she wore men's clothes. She tries to mention it in conversations with friends, either tossing in jokes or casual comments, or having a serious discussion about it when such things come up naturally. And in her few relationships, she made sure that the other person was fully aware before they committed. She learned to do this the hard way.

This is my own example of how queer characters might interact with the lore and culture of SG. No one has officially approved or denied it as in game lore, so I've just been running with it. And Liz's ex Gerard turned himself into a woman on "accident", with a potion, decided to use her new form to hide, and... realised that she really liked it. And Liz started flirting with her before she even knew who she was. That might eventually go become something more, in time, though their relationship is now too complex to make predictions. Liz also had an attraction with Summerwind, who treats their sex the same way as they treat their hair and eye color - easily changeable with potions, and seemingly meaningless. They also seem to be asexual.

But, is any of this normal? Does the presence of menacing potions make gender a non-issue? Does the general lack of sexism (though I see it RPed, so maybe just "less" sexism? I think this should be discussed here, too) mean that there wasn't an issue with gender in the first place? Is SG totally cool with binary (men and women) genders flopping back and forth, but nonbinary people (like Sadhara and possibly Summer, idunno) are a strange concept? Are same sex romances acceptable or normal? Is it only acceptable for one sex? Is it okay to have a same sex romance, but marriage is reserved for only a man and a woman? Are bisexual or pansexual people something that people know about and have heard of? Is there a cultural pressure to pick one, or drink a potion to fit your partner? And how recent are menacing potions, anyways? Were they always in SG? Are they a recent addition that revolutionized how people see gender? Or just small communities? What about the nomads in Eldebaro that drop them? Why do they have so many, and how does it affect their culture?

I want to remind people that, despite applying RL situations to LGBTQ people in SG, I'm only asking for opinions, viewpoints and ideas for IC SG. I do not wish to spark an argument that isn't about SG. In other words, stay on topic. That said, I welcome you to comment about your own characters, interactions, how you think certain cultures would treat things, what makes sense in the setting, and so on.

What does it mean to be LGBTQ in SG?

Feel free to answer any number of the questions that I've asked, ask your own, talk about something not mentioned but on topic, or answer the same questions, but about different regions and cities.

For example, Tonovi doesn't seem like a place that welcomes gender fluidity, as it's heavier on the lawful end of the spectrum than anything else. Yet, they are ruled by a duchess, and probably have no issues with sexism. Seneca is a city that welcomes drow and orcs (well, "allows" them) as well as dwarves and elves, and would be closer to the chaotic side of things. It's also the city that likeliest has the most traffic from adventurers with ready access to menacing potions.

I'm no imm, and I can't make anything "official canon", but I think a lot about SG and its cultures can be decided on or influenced by players. And I'm hoping imms hop in on this conversation, too! Well, I hope this actually ends up being a conversation at all, and that people actually read my sleepy rambling.

TL;DR: What does it mean to be LGBT in SG? How does it show in various cultures and characters?

I apologize for any typos or if I accidentally typed it all in orcish because I only get ideas and want to do things when it's time to sleep.
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undelhorn



Joined: 20 Jun 2014
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never really thought about this one, but I know I've seen several gender fluid PCs over the years but I've never seen anyone discuss it ICly in game. I always stayed away from it on my PCs because its much easier to offend someone's sexual preference even when it is all IC than it is to offend someone by being racist towards elves. I mean elves do not really exist, LGBT do and although I'm 100% straight I have fought for their rights in the USA (and gotten jailed and beat up for it) so it just feels like something that all parties involved would need to know only extends to SG and not outside the game.
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ViolaRose



Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 113

PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An interesting topic...

I am inclined to suggest, as xnithi did, that the more lawful cities would shun the breaking of the "traditional" way of things.

On the other hand it's quite possible politics would not come into play at all, as this tends to be more of a religious issue, and our gods in SG are far from our gods in the real world. Perhaps none of the gods ever bothered to establish sexual protocol? Maybe these questions have never even arisen nor mattered in this blasphemous setting.

Google tells me D&D encourages people to explore every aspect of gender, sex, etc., if they're so inclined. Which leads me to believe it would be perfectly acceptable in the setting itself, and even common among the general populace, but again that doesn't really answer the question of OUR game.

But, I mean, we have elves. They're basically all women who'll have sex with anything, as long as it, too, is an elf of some sort.

Latching onto what Undelhorn said, the topic is likely something that's generally avoided between players for fear of someone getting offended, and maybe that's why no cities carry such discrimination as well. Really, our players seem to struggle enough with the concept of racism in a world that should be nasty with it.
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xnithi



Joined: 25 Oct 2017
Posts: 57
Location: Texas, y'all

PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I mean elves do not really exist, LGBT do


That's a good point, but on the other hand, it's very easy to draw parallels to race, if one were so inclined, and racism exists in both settings.

Quote:
Really, our players seem to struggle enough with the concept of racism in a world that should be nasty with it.


I've been RPing it as adventurers being more open minded than the general populace. The average person lives in one area, and may only see goblins or orcs when they attack. Therefore, their racism, in their head, is justified. Adventurers, on the other hand, travel to places where things are done differently. You can buy drinks from a half-ogre bartender in the pirate area. He doesn't try to eat you, he doesn't attack you, he just serves you beer just like any human bartender.

That doesn't mean that adventurers should be free from racism. Sadhara hates drow and will never, ever adventure into the underdark. She barely tolerates half-drow, and that's only because she's actively trying to be more neutral. Kobolds and goblins generally evoke caution, as she tends to automatically see them as enemies.

But back on topic, I have had RP with Sadhara dealing with binaryism, transphobia, and conflicts of sexual orientation, and I think such RP is wonderful. Not for Sadhara, clearly, but it makes the world seem more realistic, and I feel that ignoring this kind of thing completely does the game a disservice. We have lines and mail to say "hey, I don't feel this way personally, it's my character", and I have only met players who have been able to treat IC discriminations IC. Maybe it hasn't been that way in the past, and people's hesitation is justified. But, I find SG currently to be an environment where I feel comfortable openly playing such characters, with the expectations that IC discrimination will come as is appropriate.

Religion and gender and sexuality does seem to be an important pivot point. Lawful gods may have been more inclined to strict gender roles, though does that mean that those have to be Western gender roles? I imagine neutral gods would probably not care, and chaotic gods would probably support it, but it would also be dependent on which god. For example, nature gods. LGBTQ happens in nature, to some extent. Gay penguins and monkeys and so on. Plus, many animals are hermaphrodites, and others switch sexes to suit their needs. However, humanoids generally need magic to change their sex. Would nature gods see that us unnatural and wrong? And would followers of those gods conflate gender and sex, and deem trans characters who have not transitioned as just as unnatural as those who have used potions?
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"[Aiden poses clinging to the ceiling like a gecko].
With a slight shimmer, Aiden is revealed to view.
Night screeches
Aiden drops down and lands on his feet lightly.
Night speaks softly: Why!?
Aiden smiles at Night."
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Nienne
Immortal


Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 2764
Location: Aussieland

PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think this one has been heavily addressed in the setting, as per a lot of things over the years - no-one actually sat down and wrote up a timeline & event history til 2007 after all. While some of the longer-term imms may have a loose understanding as well, I don't think it's been expressed widely. I think most of our playerbase is pretty open-minded and understanding of the diversity we have participating here - but as Xnithi noted, I do feel the various facets of racism, sexuality and other divisive issues do give shape to the world we're creating here, so they do play an important role!

In this case I'll throw a few generalities as I understand them - and given I was a major party to writing up the various lore sections back in the day, hopefully I have a relative coverage on this. Definitely some parallels will be picked up from the civilisations that our various regions are based on!

The general Shadowgate realm and its standard citizenry would find non-standard sexuality an oddity at best, or something for heavy discrimination at worst. As a benchmark, we usually use a medieval basis for the region. Certain more lawful or restrictive areas (eg/ Tonovi, Antioch) may be far more discriminatory against LGBTQ. Similarly, the Maalish historically would view such matters as taboo and some tribes may have heavy punishments, depending on their nature.

The Tsarven empire, on the other hand, tends to view the Shadowgate realm as the "northern barbarians" for a number of reasons - including certain facets of racism (particularly half-bloods) and sexism. The Shadowgate region is distinctly patriarchal, whereas in Tsarven we have at least one entire matriarchal kingdom and many others were women are not defaulted to submissive roles, as well as several culture bases where the standard binary gender roles are much more fluid (eg/ Lirremar, based on India/Nepal/Tibet). Sindh, the city-state capital of Tsarven, is renowned for its progressive attitudes on race, gender, etc (or, by the northerners, just seen as bizarre). I expect that non-standard gender roles would be more widely accepted by characters/NPCs that hail from this region.

Another particular culture of note for LGBTQ considerations would be the Senzokuan clans of the Wildlands to the west. They are a loose amalgamation of several different Asian cultures - several of which have unique historical approaches to the blurred lines between male/female. I expect several cultural facets of unusual sexual orientation here would be viewed as acceptable also. Geographically, the Wildlands also touch on the borders of Lirremar, so this particular area of the map to the south and west is probably the main area of interest in this topic.

A single other culture would be of note also - currently only small and recently restored, but growing. The Zin'Charu empire is strongly based on roman and greek history; while it is mostly long-lost at this point in our setting, being more than a thousand years extinct, the recently returned Shadovar who now have sway over Tharis would also view some facets of sexuality in a different light (particularly re: male homosexuality being less taboo in certain situations).

As to deities, most are only new and probably haven't developed strong standpoints on these matters yet - their churches are still being constructed and their clergy are gathering and growing even now. The usual angle of lawful vs chaos would be a rough benchmark to use, but in particular Kreys would be at odds with his expectation of lawful/traditional roles, given he was the emperor of Tsarven where many non-standard roles are more widely accepted. So he would not hold to the usual lawful expectation Smile

Then, of course, we have the demi-humans which is another topic entirely, I may leave that for another day Razz

I know most of that is fairly broad but hopefully it might give a better understanding of which cultures in the game would have certain standpoints!
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ViolaRose



Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 113

PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oo, thanks N! That's very enlightening. Smile
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xnithi



Joined: 25 Oct 2017
Posts: 57
Location: Texas, y'all

PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is why N is the licheness! Thanks, that helped out a TON. But, my discussion on religion was more about the former gods. The characters living now, and those that built their culture, were followers of older gods.
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"[Aiden poses clinging to the ceiling like a gecko].
With a slight shimmer, Aiden is revealed to view.
Night screeches
Aiden drops down and lands on his feet lightly.
Night speaks softly: Why!?
Aiden smiles at Night."
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Uriel



Joined: 09 Dec 2013
Posts: 145
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For some truly ancient Lore, I remember that Eiryasha was married to Katryna. Both were antipaladins - Eiryasha followed Auril, I don't remember who Katryna followed. This was around 1998 or so. I remember them because they both killed off one of my pc's Smile I remember I stabbed Katryna for about 9HP and she laughed at me before killing off my thief Smile Good times!
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