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Roleplay Standards
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cyric
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Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 291
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't understand how it works. When experience drains from the buffer, your character is able to use it to advance?
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ViolaRose



Joined: 20 Apr 2015
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right. Basically your buffer fills up while you gain exp in the normal ways, and then that "built up" experience slowly trickles over to your total exp - so feasibly you can be sitting around an inn when suddenly you advance to your next level. So it isn't all about pushing for that next level, next stat, next feat, whatever - because it will get there when it gets there.
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cyric
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, so it goes into a holding tank and then ticks over to your main xp pool. The tick rate is based on your level.

This is essentially a hard lower limit on how quickly you can advance, correct? i.e. if your tank is never empty, and you never die, it will take X online hours to get to level 20, Y online hours to get to level 30, and Z online hours to get to level 40. Right?
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ViolaRose



Joined: 20 Apr 2015
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I imagine it would work that way, yeah Smile You're getting experience all the time at a steady rate (assuming you keep your buffer full), and I suppose it would also mean that everyone is pretty much leveling at the same pace as well, which might be beneficial for forming parties, building alliances and enemies, and the like.

And your buffer size also increases as you level up, so you could add days worth of experience into it eventually, and then let it drain as you roleplay, work on songs (for the bards!), color code a new set of shoes, write a background, or however it is people spend their time.

I know it isn't a perfect fix - some people would still feel the pain of hitting that wall when they've grinded their buffer full and are forced to stop (or not stop but anything gained would be rather pointless). But it could be set at pretty liberal limits - 40 levels in 15-20 days or something? I mean, that seems reasonable to me. I never really understood the rush to be level 40 anyway, when there's nowhere else to go.

And I do favor the idea of giving rewards rather than punishments.

But as I said, I think this was a really well done system and it seemed to take away some of the pain that we've experienced with the tax caps - in the least it allows us to see where we stand, if we're about to hit the wall. Smile
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cyric
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The effect of implementing this will cause online time to be the determining factor of how high you go. It could potentially be extremely painful for high level characters who reclass. It's interesting for sure.

I did have a similar idea recently on adding an xp pool. Basically when you go out to adventure, anything you earn goes into a pool. If you die, you lose the pool. When you get back to civilization or a temple or whatever, your pool is added to your total. The idea would be to remove or drastically reduce the 10% death tax because I think multiple deaths drive people away from the game.
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ViolaRose



Joined: 20 Apr 2015
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure why it would affect someone reclassing. If reclassing was held to any standard (see above thread), people would actually roleplay learning an entirely different skillset than the one they had previously, and wouldn't do it in a day.

But it would keep people without an ability to play much at a disadvantage (unless the buffer continued to empty to an extent even while offline). But then perhaps people would log in, fill their buffer, and log out. And never roleplay anyway, because that's fun for them I guess.

But yeah, it was just a thought. I think something needs to be done, because while I understand the purpose behind opening up leveling to however quickly people can manage it, it's made a noticeable change and not in a good way (understanding, of course, that some people think it's better this way).

(I also feel inclined to note that I am 100% guilty of powerleveling since things opened up, and so my complaints are a bit hypocritical, but it's difficult not to when that's all anyone else is doing so mostly I'm stuck roleplaying with a wall otherwise - on the other hand, and at the risk of sounding like a horrible motivational poster (again) - Be the change you want to see in the world! That is to say, roleplay and maybe people will roleplay back. I have no idea, so I'm just rambling at this point).

In the end, I think the best solution to the rp problem is avatars. We need them. Also, in-game storage (yes that has nothing to do with anything, but we need it all the same). Very Happy
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ViolaRose



Joined: 20 Apr 2015
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing has become abundantly clear to me in the past few weeks: Roleplay on ShadowGate is dead. Engaging, vibrant characters have been replaced by 1-dimensional munchkins, scraping by on the bare minimum standards of roleplay (That doesn't apply to everyone, of course). I hope you get the quantity you were looking for, Saide, because we've sacrificed all the quality.

It's been fun, but now I'm done.
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cyric
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Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ViolaRose wrote:
One thing has become abundantly clear to me in the past few weeks: Roleplay on ShadowGate is dead. Engaging, vibrant characters have been replaced by 1-dimensional munchkins, scraping by on the bare minimum standards of roleplay (That doesn't apply to everyone, of course). I hope you get the quantity you were looking for, Saide, because we've sacrificed all the quality.

It's been fun, but now I'm done.


What was the response when you confronted these guys and told them their rp was lacking?
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cyric
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm working with Bainthor on character development. Anyone with constructive criticism or suggestions please mail us both or feel free to post here. This could also lead to a useful dialogue on the nature of RP and help understand where everyone is coming from.

Above all, please keep a civil tone.
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ViolaRose



Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 63

PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been thinking about how to best reply to this, because in some ways it's a lot easier to feel disenchanted by (what I construe to be) bad roleplay rather than to pinpoint exactly (what I construe to be) good roleplay. Also please note that this is not a post about Bain or for Bain. These are just my thoughts on roleplay in general.

I think it comes down to one word: Immersion. Both of a character, and for the world you create for other characters.

This is and isn't as simple as saying: I am in a medieval fantasy setting and I'm here to gather the best equipment so that I can kill all the enemies. - In a sense, that is what I'd define to be "bare minimum standards of roleplay"

So we're all in a medieval fantasy setting, and for the most part we all know WHY we're in this particular place in this particular time (as per backgrounds), but we need to look a little it deeper into aforementioned backgrounds and realize that they shaped our characters to be what they are, and the world continues to shape our charters into what we will be. For example, if you PK someone and say "It's what my character would do?" there should be a reason WHY it is what your character would do (and I could delve into a whole list of attributes here under the category of why - such as quirks, fears, strengths, favorite ice cream flavor, weaknesses - all these things will flesh out a character, but that's not really what this post is about). If your character is a generally good-natured, shy fellow from the woods, what in your history leads you to being a murderer in the moment you have to make that decision? If you're a happy little gnome and suddenly you go off and torture someone for fun, this, at best, is you playing a psycho gnome, at worst it's terribly inconsistent and overall a poorly thought out action, and a breaking of immersion.

Immersion also means acting properly in your setting, and making sense as a part of that setting. Please don't tell me you like your sword because it adds to damage and attack. Please don't suddenly scream out 'JESUS! in the middle of a conversation. Please don't say, "Yo, that's cool dood." All of it ruins the immersion, and while you might find it stupid to have to curtail that kind of behavior because everyone knows what you mean, it would be respectful of you to consider the players around you who are trying to play a role where those sorts of things really don't make sense...

And finally it means to be aware of your environment. Assume the world around you is alive. If you kill someone in the middle of a street in broad daylight, there will be witnesses. If you scheme loudly of your plans in a tavern, you will be overheard. Just because the game does not support dozens of NPCs hanging out, doesn't mean we shouldn't assume they're not there. Cities have armies. Many of them have dozens of guards (who's strength are poorly represented from a mechanical aspect) - just because there are only 3 standing in a room doesn't mean you're going to get away with ransacking the streets. Please be respectful of the environment you're in, and behave accordingly. Behaving in such a way because you think nobody is watching, or because you're sick of guards attacking you OOCly is breaking immersion - if not your own than certainly your fellow player's.

Also one last note on character development: I know that it can be difficult to find a niche for your character, and everything has been done a dozen times in a dozen different ways. But I think every well-developed character should have at least one thing about them that stands out - whether it's that guy is shady, that lady is crazy, that man creates demented toys and trades them to unsuspecting children for their souls... At the very least, I think a character should leave some sort of first impression. Something for another character to be inspired by, or embellish upon, or at least use as a conversation piece. Something so uniquely you that it draws other people into the story that you've come to write..

That is all, I think, at least for now. I'm sorry if anybody disagrees or thinks I have no right to dictate what is and isn't good roleplay. I certainly don't think I am the best, but perhaps I'm not the worst (anymore). This is only my opinion, and nothing more.
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ViolaRose



Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 63

PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, Cyric, no.. I didn't nicely tell anyone anything. I feel that players policing players, no matter how politely handled, will lead to nothing good.

As Saide said in some post somewhere - who are we to judge the roleplay of another? I get that, which is why I've cut my losses and removed myself from a situation that I no longer found to be enjoyable. As I'm sure many players do not feel the hardcore RP style that I prefer to be enjoyable.

Unfortunately I do not agree that we can have it both ways on ShadowGate. Sad
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cyric
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Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 291
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ViolaRose wrote:
Also, Cyric, no.. I didn't nicely tell anyone anything. I feel that players policing players, no matter how politely handled, will lead to nothing good.

As Saide said in some post somewhere - who are we to judge the roleplay of another? I get that, which is why I've cut my losses and removed myself from a situation that I no longer found to be enjoyable. As I'm sure many players do not feel the hardcore RP style that I prefer to be enjoyable.

Unfortunately I do not agree that we can have it both ways on ShadowGate. Sad


We cannot enforce RP without policing it at least somewhat. There is no-one better to judge RP than we, I judge RP all the time.. If no-one requests & suggests people how to improve their RP, they (in general) will not (unless forced to through a cap system, and even then that just forces them to slow down and spend time on it, not necessarily improving). We can have it both ways on SG if there are enough players (because more players means more avatars).
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing I tell my players in my D&D campaign is to remember that a living evolving character is not a limited set of binary triggers. But they have an opinion on everything and a reason for that opinion. Not sure if this is relevant but oh well.
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Ungrim



Joined: 13 Aug 2016
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Location: Denmark

PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It has been a while since I posted anything on these forums, so long in fact, that I had to make a new account since I forget my old password Smile

I thought I would give my two cents on the current issues that are being discussed, seeing as they affect all of us. As I understand it, some players feel that there has been a decline in overall RP, and that this is more or less a direct cause of the removal of the experience-tax. More importantly, there are close to zero immortal activity, while they wait to get a resolution to the current situation with Tsera.

I have been back at playing SG again for a year so, and Iíve been having a good time with it too Smile - but my overall impression through these months, have been of a dying or at the least heavily declining mud. Very often during this past year, I have found myself alone for hours and hours at the time, with maybe 1-2 people logging on at the same time. What this meant for me personally, was that I could either play a new character (with no playing time), and sit around and let the slow time tick away, waiting to get enough playing time for that next level, or rehash/redo my older characters with PT to spare. I chose the latter, on the basis that I did not have the patience or time, to sit around and slowly accumulate playing time on characters with very little roleplay opportunities and few areas to explore due to level constraints. This means I have characters with an almost comic (or sad) amount of previous classes/deities/descriptions and so forth, the only constant being alignment and race. I personally would much rather have made new characters with an exciting new race/alignment, and kept my older ones to play for another day (some of those old boys, have some serious personality issues by now).

Now I have been around for a while, Iíve taken long breaks in the past, but periodically I return to fight, roleplay, explore and just have fun with a game Iíve loved playing for close to two decades. My personal opinion on exp-tax, and I am aware that not everyone feel this way, is that exp-tax have been doing a lot more harm than good for this game. I have never liked it, and I probably never will. I donít believe restricting players in such a heavy way, promotes anything but stagnation and boredom and I also believe that it has driven away a substantial amount of players from a great game, desperate for a population increase. Cyric definitely hits the nail on the head, when he says that our main problem is a very small playerbase and a lack of DMís to oversee new plots, big and small.

Now what I noticed after Saide removed the exp-tax, was an influx of new characters. After May 16th, I have seen more players around at all times (though not nearly enough for my taste), for me that means more opportunities for roleplaying and partying, not less. Are there people rushing through the levels? Sure.. That is only to be expected when you open it up after so many years of heavy-handed restriction. I fail however to see how this have a negative impact on roleplay? Many of these players would not be playing at all otherwise, and I doubt that the ďhardcoreĒ roleplayers, will have suddenly decided to never roleplay again in favor of an endless exp grind?

Saide opened up exp-tax, and made a slew of other changes in a pretty short time. Some big, some small, and I know from talking with him, that this was only the beginning of what he had planned. He recognized that the playerbase was declining so badly, that it was killing the game for everyone, and he was actively seeking to address that and attract more players, new and old. The reason the process of changing the game to increase both playerbase, roleplay and conflict has stopped, is the same reason no immortals are around anymore. Itís not because all the wizzes agreed to remove exp-tax and call it a day, I am reasonably sure that they knew new things would have to be implemented when they removed the tax, and planned to address them along the way (I know I have mailed several suggestions for improvements myself, as I am sure other players have done).

Now the actual problems, as I understand it, is that some feel that players are not roleplaying their alignments in regards to partying, using equipment that is out-of-character and making thin/sketchy descriptions and backgrounds?

None of those issues has anything to do with the removal of exp-tax.

Players are still expected to roleplay their alignment and class, there have been no changing of the rules in that regard. Players who donít are subject to guidance and/or reprimands from immortals and players alike, if they fail to uphold the roleplay standard that SG has set. Using equipment unfit for your character/alignment/class is still frowned upon as I understand it, and has nothing to do with a characters level. I can easily roll a LG paladin and find magic items at level 6 that are spectacularly bad from a roleplay perspective, I donít need to be level 30 to do that. Players are also expected to have a thought-out description and background, and they are reminded continually of this when they pass certain level-thresholds.

If some of these standards are not being enforced right now, it is not because levels were opened up, to my knowledge there has been no changing of the rules in regard to roleplaying. If these issues are not being addressed at the moment, it is for the same reason that almost all active immortals and avatars decided to stop coding and DMíing.

I am not party to the discussions behind the scenes, and I donít claim to know the particulars. What I do know is that the core of active and respected immortals and avatars on the mud felt that the current situation was so serious, that they had to completely step away from the game, perhaps permanently, until it can be resolved.

Ė Reflect on that for a minute.

Since it seems Tsera are undergoing some massive RL problems and is unable to login and deal with the current situation, I doubt things will improve in the future. What we really need right now is a ruling from Garrett on the issue, so that the staff can and will return to the mud. I donít know what that ruling will be, but I imagine it would require a demotion at the least and a set of rules governing immortal behavior in the future. If what Cyric says is true, and Tsera might not be back for years, I think Garrett needs to make a ruling based on the current evidence.

In the meantime I see that people are already discussing how to implement new kinds of exp-tax, and I really got to stress that I donít believe this will do anything but hurt the game further. Anything that forces time constraints on players and severely limits new characters will ultimately scare away the casual players.

I am all for promoting roleplay, but let us try and find ways where you reward the good rp, instead of punishing the mediocre. Like exp-boosts for players who do not gather x amount of exp per hour logged on, various physical and/or cosmetic in-game perks awarded through rp-reward systems, you get the idea. I would much rather see an environment that actively encourage and reward good roleplay and promotes IG relations, than one that punish and penalize. In short, more carrot and less stick.

For example, If a player wants to roleplay living in a cave and never talk to people, they should be allowed to do so (poor beast races). You might suddenly meet a new high level character that you have never seen before IG, but so what? Itís a new roleplay opportunity is all. Is it any different from me logging in one of my old high level characters, that no one knows because they are 10+ years old? How does it subtract from people enjoying the game?

If we want to slow down levelling at the top tiers, to really make it feel as an accomplishment to reach level 40, I am sure we can come up with alot more productive and fun solutions than hard caps.

This might all be a moot discussion anyway, any solutions we think up requires coders to implement and avatars to oversee, which are in drastically short supply these days. I really do hope that Garrett will resolve the issues soon, or promote our current immortals to arch status so they can resolve it between themselves.
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saide
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think your post was very well written Ungrim.

I will say for me personally that I am away and plan to remain that way - aside from an occasional log in - until there is a resolution - I have made my peace with the fact that maybe that means I will never code on SG again. I enjoy the code and will miss it, but I am not budging on the issue. However, that's also all I am going to say about it on these forums anymore.

I do want to say that you are correct about a lot of things in your post.

When time requirements were removed, behind the scenes I was working to try to convince the immortal staff that we need to trust players more and focus more on rewarding good RP and less on punishing bad. The idea being just as you said, more carrot, less stick.

There were two main reasons that I was trying to push for this. The first being that as immortals if we worried less about trying to "enforce" every little thing or regulate every little behavior my theory was that we could focus more on improving our game and being creative in ways that would potentially benefit everyone.

The other being that maybe if our players realized that we trusted them they would have less incentive to cheat (at least most of them - I realize some would probably take advantage of the system) and would feel more invested in the game and the future of it.

This is one of the main reasons I started revealing mechanics - such as AC, hit bonus, and play time - all things that are important from a game perspective that made no sense to me to hide from the people playing the game.

The reality was that people who knew the game - knew roughly what their AC was - or those that know immortals - simply asked what their play time was. The same could be said of hit bonuses or any other mechanic.

One of my goals should I go back to coding is to develop a system that shows damage for spells and feats so that players who are new to the game can get an idea of how effective an ability or spell is. We will see what happens.

The same can be said about any RP issues on our game. A year ago I could have started a new character and just sit somewhere or walked around and did no RP - gathered enough time and then leveled fast. Nothing has really changed.

There are some people that need to learn to RP better - which is where players who interact with them come in - and avatars that can help to immerse them in the SG world.

There are also some characters that RP but not everyone sees that RP.

Nothing has changed with either of those concepts either.
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