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Greener pastures
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Mister Black



Joined: 03 Sep 2016
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:10 pm    Post subject: Greener pastures Reply with quote

I gave the new system a chance but it has become clear that sg is no longer a game I find any interest in playing. The new mechanics are fun for a time and the areas are great to a point but the new rules and ridiculous easy advancement means it takes no time at all to quickly cap out and be left with nothing to do.

The focus seems to be in all the wrong places where I am concerned and I know several who share my view. Because of this we have started looking elsewhere for a mud that actually promotes rp and has immortals taking an active part in making it happen. It used to be I couldn't find a place that could compete in that respect with what I found in sg. Sadly that is no longer the case.

I wish Sg the best and hope it eventually becomes a great place to play again. If things change course and rp becomes central focus again I may return but until then I bid it a fond farewell.
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Mikyn



Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm pretty much of the same mind. The RP was what kept me coming back to SG, so I'm pretty much at a loss now (this is actually the first time I've hit max level, because I always invested more time in interaction).

So long for now,
Kiyoshi's player
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Gia



Joined: 03 Feb 2017
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there anything more specific that's driving you away? If you're "a group of people" seeking to roleplay, what's keeping you from doing so?

I ask because much like yourselves I have yet to find an adventure themed game, and playerbase, in which I can experience the same level of roleplay that I have in Shadowgate. I have done some amazing avatar-ran plots, but some of the most intense and heart-wrenching experiences have been made possible by player interactions alone.

I have been prevented from playing for a while, but hope to return sometime in the near future - I'd hate to think the roleplayers among you are "abandoning ship" for lack of substantial roleplay.

Gia
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Mister Black



Joined: 03 Sep 2016
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the past you could actually accomplish things and make a difference in the overall story of the game. Now there seems to be no story and no imm support for anyone who wants to actually make an rp impact on the game. The focus is on mechanical advancements to code while dumping anything that rewarded time investment and rp.

Basically rp now is essentially just a chat circle jerk that can't accomplish anything because there is no support to do so. I've already found a couple alternatives with larger player base and actual incentives for rp.

The game simply doesn't offer what I want anymore.
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Aunuit



Joined: 14 Jul 2014
Posts: 9
Location: oregon

PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking back I find myself sort of amused because I used to think that consistent player interaction was enough. However, I too have found that if I can't affect real change in the game, which in a world without avatars, I've finally realized requires avatars... it's not that interesting chatting about what we could do or might happen while we just rehash the same content and interactions. Doesn't really matter how innovative you get with your roleplay if the world doesn't change as a result and also if you have a very limited number of people to interact with in addition to the aforementioned problems.
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 385

PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought we had some Avatars in training waiting in the wings for the faction system to finish as well as the new rules on player/Avatar interaction to qvoid burnout.

Thats why Im pretty much just waiting for the faction system to finish.
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cyric
Immortal


Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 291
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Problem is avataring takes too much damn time. If you're going to do it right setup is about 2-3x actual plot time.

You've got to come up with the story, make the items, create the npcs, equip them, test the items make sure they're balanced, if you're creating bad guys for players to fight, you've got to test those too.

I know I don't have time for all that, which leaves quick oneshots, 20-40 minutes using existing mobs, and very simple task based stuff with no real lasting consequences. What we really need to do is attract some retirees who can just run stuff full time because they have nothing better to do.
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Gia



Joined: 03 Feb 2017
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can definitely see the value of feeling like you have an impact on the world and the power to change it, even on a small level. One of my favorite plots was a mini-plot in which a tiny part of Deku forest was healed. I love walking through it and knowing "we did this".

Without dedicated coders, the game might not still be alive. But we really do need avatars as well, they breathe life into a scripted world and inspire amazing adventures and possibilities for character growth. That said, I understand why so many burn out and why we may have more coders than avatars. As one not having the time/skillset for either, I gotta say your work continue to impress me.

Short interactions and one-shots are actually also very important aspects of the SG experience, Cyric, it's great that that's being done.
That said, I also understand player-felt frustration when your rp never seems to get anywhere and you never hear back on your avatarmails. Are there any avatars out there who might be willing to run reactive plots in the future, in response to player requests? Would that take less work?

Lastly, I'm with Verbie on the whole "wait and be patient approach". Perhaps an active and patient roleplaying player-base can inspire more avatars to play too? Hopefully, that, in turn, can bring those of you leaving back into the game.
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myrkul



Joined: 19 Dec 2009
Posts: 279

PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well if anybody wants to be an avatar, send Saide and Nienne a mail!

I've really had a lot of fun avataring! I think you will quickly find that even avatars have limits on what they can do with respect to the setting Smile And Cyric is absolutely right -- it is 3 parts prep to 1 part play time.

I was in a semi-retired state and was asked to help out a new Av. I'm still willing to do that if anybody else has an interest to take the reins. Well I don't have reins... but if you want to take up the Tombstone of Assbeating, keep the crypt clean, and feed players to the zombies, you could be the next Myrkul Smile Or whatever other deity of your choice, just please feed the zombies Smile

IRL is demanding more of my time lately or I would be on more often. I also want to finish making an area as I am years behind schedule Smile
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 385

PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know my opinion means nothing here. But I really do feel based on what Cyric said, is that it sounds like Avatars are approaching things in a very ineffecient way. In my opinion, the creation of items are not essential. And a pool of Avatar level items to draw upon would be more effecient and building the pool can be done idly in free time.

And most can probably be accomplished with pre existing NPCs and such. Its not like Avatars need or even should create original organizations.

And of course just responding to players and helping them influence the world, should be the simplest thing of all.

In my opinion it sounds like most Avatars are suffering from a common ailment that afflicts new DMs even in normal campaigns. Trying to do too muc rather than taking the easy way, which in DMing usually is the right way.

But thats just my ooinion, and its probably wrong so Ill just concede that Im wrong right now.

Probably why my own request to be an Avatar was rejected.
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saide
Immortal


Joined: 18 Mar 2007
Posts: 341

PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Verbannon,

You are not that wrong. I was an avatar years ago before I was Saide. I burned out primarily because there was no way to really have a lasting impact on the game - other than in the minds of a few players - who may or may not continue to play. I wanted to create areas and items that were unique and would outlive my own existence on ShadowGate.

I think some avatars suffer from the same issue in that they want to really impact the game - but the ability to do so as an avatar is extremely limited - however, it is better than what it was when I was an avatar. There are quite a few new tools and the existing ones were greatly improved.

A pool of items is a good idea - the only issue being that avatar items are not quite up to par with other items - IE the tools to create items in the game do not allow for unique items that are equal to what someone who can code, is able to create. I am not sure if this matters too much - it's pretty cool to have a unique item from a player point of view, at least in my opinion.

You are also correct about responding to players and helping them influence the world should be simple - the reality though is that most player requests are not simple - the answer is not simple. While this is not a bad thing it is time consuming. It would be easy if you just granted whatever player x wanted and be done with it, but as a DM you're wanting to think about how NPC y would react or maybe the request by player x would have some down side - IE someone wants to be younger, maybe they can be, but some years later they are going to be approached by someone who wants something in return - that player x never thought about.

I definitely do not think that all interactions need to be this way but it helps to make the game seem alive - there are people with motivations besides the players - in our game world - sometimes players do not know those motivations - or heck sometimes they do not even exist until they need to be developed. This is what takes time.

As for those of who you are seeking greener pastures. I wish you the best, you are always welcome back on SG should you decide to come back. I hope all of you realize that it's never been our intention to push away people who are in the game for the unique stories, but rather to open up the game to more people who hopefully eventually contribute to those stories themselves and to making the game world more fun and alive for everyone.
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 385

PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is it that makes it time consuming? I can only think of one thing that could complicate it but I assume there must be more. I would imagine the hardest part would be when a player tries to interact with a part of the game created by an inactive imm. Or an active but different imm. Since Nienne gives me the impression that for some reason game elements are not all 'free to use' and there is a fear of misusing an alien element. But thats only the possibility I can concieve of.

I mean you dont need to think about how every NPC would react, just a couple relevant ones. If Verbannon decided to lets say, wipe out the cyrists in Shadow, rolled well and succeeded. You juet need a couple of the related factions to react. The cyrists of course, The Shadow merchant Council, the Sharrans and the Maskarrans. Sure there are others but you dont need to do anything with them.

Decide that the Maslarrans might decide to hire out their own assassins to fill that void left by the cyrists, for a steep upcharge, The Sharrans would decide to try to get information the cyrists held, by stealibg corpses of the dead cyrists for speak with dead rituals and raiding any ontelligence Verbannon confiscated, They would probably also try to eeplace the cyrists as the dark world contact for any of the shady nerchant councilmen. And the merchant council would openly support the extermination at firsr, but merchant councilnen in league with the cyrists would stress that it was an act of vigilantism and an affront to Shadiw soverignty. And of course the Cyrusts would both start murdering any of their members still alive with telations to Shadow as punisjment fir failure and retaliate.

The actual dirty derails dont need to be thought of until they become relevant.

Unless fir some reason in this area Avataring is different from tabletop DMing.

And agaim maybe Im just wrong in entirely.
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Nienne
Immortal


Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 2572
Location: Aussieland

PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of the time (at least for the ones I run) goes into planning and setup - at least for anything more than one-off mini encounters. Decide your story within an appropriate facet of the setting, flesh out details, set up NPCs and monsters, create any item rewards. Completely rewrite story when players do entirely different to what you'd thought of and written five contingencies to cover. Ditch half your items when several players vape, and write some new ones for others that have been unexpectedly pulled in. Creatures and items need both crayoned, including up to three perspectives on all actions/specials, and then input with various settings to the game (regardless of whether you're a coder or an avatar).

And in-between, respond to thirty four different player queries, suggestions and off-screen rolls/attempts.

Once done, deal with end repercussions and any adjustments to the game, and if not a coder, find one to implement anything lasting - which also must be written up to install.

All of the above takes time - the face value that the player sees is only a small portion of the effort that goes into running a serious plot. It's much like a DM running tabletop, but more time-consuming again - because you don't just design/write the story and do up stats and scorecards as you would for tabletop, but you also then implement all of that into a coded system. And balance is even more critical on a rolling coded environment, as it's very hard to resolve an overpowered monster mid-fight when you have seven seconds in a round; you don't have the time a GM does to quietly adjust an imbalanced beastie on the fly.

Unfortunately, that kind of workload vs result, often with player grievances along the way when it doesn't work out the way they'd intended, tends to lend to major burn-out. Wizzes, when burnt out on plotting, usually retreat to their lairs and continue to code; avatars just disappear as that's all their role really offers. It's why I tend to pace myself to one major world plot every year or two, when I get a big break from work. Mini-interactions are much easier and can be done on the fly, sometimes with no planning whatsoever, so that's great! But they don't give the overall world- and player-shaping that a lot of PCs are starved for. And unfortunately, no matter how many efficient tools we create for avatars to work with (some of which are currently quite dated!), this will still be still the reality - it's always going to be as much input as a tabletop GM and then some extra on top for implementation to the coded game, regardless of imm rank.

I'm not sure if that helps clarify any, hopefully Smile
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 385

PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok. I think you could avoid a lot of that if you skipped the write story step. But ok.
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saltron



Joined: 01 Dec 2013
Posts: 4
Location: Indiana USA.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Verbannon wrote:
ok. I think you could avoid a lot of that if you skipped the write story step. But ok.



WOW! Really?
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