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Level check/Pk restrictions
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Mister Black



Joined: 03 Sep 2016
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:48 pm    Post subject: Level check/Pk restrictions Reply with quote

Hello all,

I have been mulling over some ideas for starting a group based player plot of sorts and while discussing with some of the other players I regularly interact with I’ve come to realize how oppressive an environment SG has become. A major concern that was brought up is that high level characters can quickly impose themselves on any rp you are trying to create and just kill all the motivation you have. In an environment like this people are forced to level up before they even bother trying to build a character which I feel is a detriment to those who would like to focus rp first.

The removal of level check and the need for pkmail has really exacerbated the abuse of low level characters which I don’t think in any way benefits the game. While it’s true that people can keep pk flags on most of the low levels they cannot rp fully with others in their own level range with those flags up. Some people are not averse to pk but just don’t want to deal with being victimized by high level characters for no reason.

I think bringing level check back would be a good boon for the game allowing people to feel safe from high level oppression and allow for slower progression where you don’t feel like you need to max out before you can do anything worthwhile.

For the tl/dr crowd, pls bring back level check pk restrictions
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Nienne
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Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 2757
Location: Aussieland

PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's something I have noted down as a want (I'm not sure why it was removed in the first place tbh?), tho haven't gotten that far down the list at this point...
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reiwichi



Joined: 14 Jan 2018
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Knowing a player that keeps their pk flag untill they reach 50 just to avoid non-rp killings by certain people I strongly agree, we need pk levelcheck and <threath> back

But pk is source of imm burn out as well though, so returning pkmail to bring wizes into player conflict is not wise decision at this point.

Perhaps system that automatically punishes non restricted pk could be considered.
Something like 1non restricted offensive hit per month per account or something smarter. Maybe stolen from other muds.

IMHO <hit> has nothing to do with rp. As soon as you do it RP is over.
From brief observation since my return SG lacks evil that considers other options, like domination, and all evil rp is down to <hits> without true reason.
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Gerard



Joined: 22 Dec 2017
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im gonna agree with this. While the resultant roleplay since has been good, getting gacked with no real recourse was definitely an enthusiasm killer there for a while, and i can see how it would definitely turn away others.

Because i like providing ideas!

1) does level scaling affect pvp? If so, is there a way to institute a required scaling with a relative range of your targets level?

2) NPC hit squads that could be hired; think mercs, but the server automates tracking, and adjusted mob levels accordingly? Bonus: it helps sink gold put of the economy and gives it some value, and allows players to punch above their level, so to speak.
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Mikyn



Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would say that level scaling should not affect levelcheck. Because a player could drop levels, gank someone, then restore their levels to prevent retaliation. Level scaling should only be a tool for partying with lower level players.
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Nienne
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Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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Location: Aussieland

PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed - level scaling would be irrelevant on both sides. We would as likely have someone scaling down temporarily to beat someone (with no reasonable recourse), or someone using it to hide from beatdown by others of their level (also not ok). Scaling would be only to allow for parties.
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Lujke
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Joined: 18 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What might make sense is for scaling to be automatically removed if you're engaged in pk (if it doesn't already work that way)
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xnithi



Joined: 25 Oct 2017
Posts: 57
Location: Texas, y'all

PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that levelcheck should come back. Most high level characters are old hands, people who have been playing SG for a while. But, we want to always be welcoming to new players, right? Levelcheck helps on both ends. Protects lower level players, and informs higher level players that the person they are targeting are low level. I had two PKs where I had grossly overestimated the strength of my oponents, and ruined RP for them. Levelcheck would have informed me that, hey, these are low level characters, you don't need to treat them in combat how you would level 50s.
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Gia



Joined: 03 Feb 2017
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like levelcheck as a tool and as a general guide-line. I do not like it as a hard rule, though.

As a tool, it levels the playing-field between newbies and the more experienced, letting you know quite quickly who to party with, who not to bother with and who not to trifle with. It also cuts the need for OOC chatter when trying to determine who to party with.

As a hard rule, however, I think it puts an unnecessary and unnatural limitation on RP. For instance, if a level 20 something kidnaps a friend, why wouldn’t a level 40 something get involved? If a level 20 something thug goes around killing npc’s, why wouldn’t a level 40 something put him down? In my opinion, if you decide to participate in PK or commit other acts of random killing/acts of evilness, you have to accept the consequences of those actions. Sometimes, the consequence is getting trounced.

What I would like to see, was the return of levelcheck as a tool and a general guide-line, rather than a hard rule, saying that “you should not kill someone outside your levelcheck without provocation. If the victim is far below your level, please consider other options than killing.” It could probably be better worded but that is the gist of it. In the above examples, the high-level character could still get involved, but he would be encouraged to solve the situation without using the “hit” command.

Lastly, I agree that getting yanked with no RP at all, especially by more powerful characters, is exceptionally frustrating. The restriction that the “hard rule levelcheck” imposes, however, has also been a source of frustration in the past. A guide-line might be a nice middle-ground.
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Nienne
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Location: Aussieland

PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll have to think this one through - my concern with it being a "guideline" is that it will be rendered fairly meaningless. Low and mid evils should be able to go around doing evil things, at least for a while, without uber-god Bob coming to spank him - Bob has bigger fish to fry. Otherwise we're not really improving on the current situation of lowbies not bothering because they know highbies will just slaughter them and end the RP. We don't have the luxury here of having a tabletop party of comparable levels and challenges, unforch - so levelcheck serves as an artificial means of putting people within reasonable scope.

I don't have an immediate answer, but I'm not sure it'll be guidelines - they're too open to disregard. I would like to see a lot more interaction from non-50s being able to actually do something and tell the stories they once did.
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Mister Black



Joined: 03 Sep 2016
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My thoughts are basically exactly the same as Niennes on this.
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Uriel



Joined: 09 Dec 2013
Posts: 141
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the current system where people don't have to play PK until they feel comfortable, and that could especially valuable to new players.

Why not form a special low level PK league?

You get a yellow PK flag that indicates that members of the league will agree to a level cap (25? pick a number), that all PK will be motivated by RP, and that PK is only allowed between members of the league. Nonmembers mechanically can't engage in PK just like a pink flag. Then enforce that mechanically & make membership an option at character creation only. Everyone starts at L1 and is on an equal footing.

What do you think about that?
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ViolaRose



Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not really understand the purpose of a league. We want to role play, not have a blood bowl. But we'd like to be able to develop our characters, without having to max out first for fear that any story we try to tell will immediately be squished by someone 30 levels higher. Being unable to grow our characters before level 50 (cuz murder) really just inspires people to rush up to top level before they even begin to play.

I think if people wish to keep their flags on til they are comfortable, then than should be an option too.

Also, very well stated, Nienne!
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xnithi



Joined: 25 Oct 2017
Posts: 57
Location: Texas, y'all

PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Gia, and I also want to point out - we're all adults here. With levelcheck as a guideline, you know that your level 50 can step in. But, you should simply know better than to step in unless you can't come up with an alternative RP-wise. And even then, you can "teach people a lesson" without killing them. And on the flip side, if you're level 22 and your target is having tea with a level 50 - don't pop in and expect that person to do nothing while you attack their friend. Don't abuse the mechanics. Rather than center a system on preventing abuse, we can just... be adults, be responsible, and not be assholes. If someone does abuse the system, the community will get into an uproar, since we're tightly knit enough that you frankly can't get away with douchiness unnoticed. And consequences will come, even if it's an RP cold shoulder or something. Guidelines work just fine when people are responsible and think on whether or not this is a situation that requires going past that line. I think we're small enough for a guideline to work. If we get bigger, which I hope we do, it could become insufficient, but we can decide the game's needs in that new climate.
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"[Aiden poses clinging to the ceiling like a gecko].
With a slight shimmer, Aiden is revealed to view.
Night screeches
Aiden drops down and lands on his feet lightly.
Night speaks softly: Why!?
Aiden smiles at Night."
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saide
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Joined: 18 Mar 2007
Posts: 395

PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I am no longer active/involved I do continue to read the forums. I agree with Xnithi here. My entire goal over the last year was to make the game less about punishment / preventing abuse. The reason being is that we spend a ton of creative energy worrying about ways that abuse can happen and trying to get ahead of it. Sure, if you notice something obvious with any feature - that is going to be abused - then fix it. If someone points out something try to fix it. Do not spend your days focusing on abuse prevention unless you like diving down rabbit holes that lead to your own burn out.

Fix the issues as they show up and work to continually improve the game mechanics.

Level check was originally removed because it was seen as a tool that did nothing but prevent people from being able to RP. Furthermore you needed to levelcheck someone or pay attention to marks on the wholist to know if you could actually interact with them in any way that might lead to conflict.
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