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Greener pastures
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 385

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cyric wrote:
Verbannon wrote:
cyric wrote:
Verbannon wrote:
I know my opinion means nothing here. But I really do feel based on what Cyric said, is that it sounds like Avatars are approaching things in a very ineffecient way. In my opinion, the creation of items are not essential. And a pool of Avatar level items to draw upon would be more effecient and building the pool can be done idly in free time.

And most can probably be accomplished with pre existing NPCs and such. Its not like Avatars need or even should create original organizations.

And of course just responding to players and helping them influence the world, should be the simplest thing of all.

In my opinion it sounds like most Avatars are suffering from a common ailment that afflicts new DMs even in normal campaigns. Trying to do too muc rather than taking the easy way, which in DMing usually is the right way.

But thats just my ooinion, and its probably wrong so Ill just concede that Im wrong right now.

Probably why my own request to be an Avatar was rejected.

Just like to throw in my two cents on the above, all valid points but there's one more thing we need to watch out for, and it's killing players. All joking aside more often than not a player Death in a plot or by avatar hand will result in claims of unfairness or favoritism, or at the very least dissatisfaction with the plot, even if the player is aiming to directly attack the followers of a chaotic evil greater deity of murder and strife. If the fights are too easy though, there's no tension. Very tough to balance that and the tougher you want the fight to be, the more you need to test it.

But tell you what Verbannon, you give me an example of a plot (including story, antagonist, rewards), and I'll tell you what needs to go into it.


okay then. Lets assume a plot an Avatar is using to stimulate things.

Plot: Pirates have been siezing spice shipments all along the coast. These pirates are largely goblinoid and being led by a hob goblin warlord who has a secret deal with the Torm Thieves guild who in turn have buyers lined up ready to buy bulk discount spices from the thireves guild.

Antagonists: The hobgoblin, his pirates, the thieves guild and the corrupt merchants and their mercanaries.

Reward: If adventurers right this wrong, they can earn themselves a gold trickle. Which represents stocks in tbe spice trade they were given as a reward. (Gold will periodically be deposited in their account at the Torm Bank)

If I was running this plot, I would just grab some preexisting hobgoblins, goblins and bug bears from the Shadowgate Monster Vault and modify them with a sailor's theme if any change is made. Pre existing thieves and pre existing mercanaries. I know all exist. And just note their location if I need to pull them up. Then I would grab another one of these pre existing hobgoblins, and soup up its stats to represent the warlord. Then I would read up on any existing information on torm's thieves guild, the Torm Merchant Politics and regional bobgoblin activity. If there is none then Ill just make it up as I go. Finally I would decide what to do if no players show i terest or something similar to this plot. In this case I would just move on to having the hobgoboin warlorr now fully funded launch assaults somewhere. The details on that I can figure out when it comes to it.

Now that preperation is done. Ill try to do the gold trickle thing between now and the end of the adventure if that fails I can just give a lump sum of gold. Or an IOU. Because you always in preparation first do the bare minimum. Then after that you use extra time for anything special.

So to run it I would announce the raids, a call for help. And then react depending on what the players do. And thats it.

Thats my example, how would you do it?

1. Create npcs: hobgoblins, bugbears, goblins, thieves, merchants, city officials, and possibly a sailor who was a victim of the raids: whether making from scratch or modifying existing, you need to set long description, short descriptions, speech, messages, and give them equipment. Some emotes wouldn't be bad either. If they're going to be in combat, You need to set their class, level, stats, hit points and skills. You need to set feats and spells known for player-like npcs (probably the head hobgoblin and a member of the thieves guild). You need all of this done fairly well because you don't know which faction the players may try to align with. 20-30 hours, double this if you're a newbie avatar.
2. Test npcs: use a persona which is equipped as a player to determine if the mobs are balanced for the level you want to run the plot for. Adjust as necessary. 5-10 hours
3. Gold trickle doesn't exist. Lump sum is boring, but if you're set on giving gold as a reward, that's the best bet. Better reward is an item like the sword of the hobgoblin leader (or other appropriate item for the players) so you can create that and test it for balance too. Need items for each major player involved otherwise it will get ugly when there's only one tangible reward. A deed also. 3 hours for an item that's weaker than what can be found in the game, double for an item closer to the power curve.
4. You could create some rooms to act as makeshift ships for the players to fight in. This is optional, but if you don't do this, you'll need to come up with an excuse why the pirates are hanging around a city. 5-10 hours if you know what you're doing, twice that for a newbie.
5. As Nienne pointed out, be prepared to have to change any of the above as players shift aliegaiances and either don't log on or insert themselves into the plot halfway through. Runnning the actual plot, responding to mails, making rolls and determinations, and making adjustments on the fly, and posting up results or making changes to room descriptions. 20 hours, give or take.

I've actually found the best setup is two avatars working together, one person acting as the face to the players and another avatar updating things on the fly.

If anyone thinks my estimates are off give me a shout but in my experience this is what it takes for a medium sized plot.


Thats bullshit. I dont care if thats true, its bullshit. I could write by hand full statblocks with values, powers and spells for twenty characters in less than an hour. So if you talking over ten hours on the mud then thats insane and something is broken. Im not even going to put this in a nice way. Something is broken. And you will not be able to even get me to consider otherwise.

I cant say anything about testing but my gut says thats bullshit to.

Your time estimate for the item I can believe, is reasonable assuming it takes some actual coding. If using pre-existing item mechanics then thats BS to.

Basically I find all your time estimates rediculous.

Sorry if I sound rude but your time estimates have me shocked and furious. If thats true then good on the Avatars for leaving. Thats bullshit and no one should tolerate that.
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Sierra



Joined: 09 Mar 2015
Posts: 16
Location: Somewhere in Dagger

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only bullshit I smell is what's coming from cause the mouth of someone with ZERO experience whatsoever coding for this MUD; claiming that he could do so much better than the people with years of experience in doing so. Newsflash, buddy: no aspect of the code here is as simplified as you think. For example, even if it would take an hour, as you claim, to code twenty or so NPCs, there's still the matter of finding and fixing any bugs in the code of said NPCs, and YES: testing for balance is necessary.
Shame you were so quick to revoke your claim of going into passive silence. Yeah, the whole "I'm the victim" act wasn't going to get you the sympathy you were aiming for. Yes, your opinion matters. Everyone's opinion matters here. The issue is that your way of thinking is constantly in opposition to the real scope of things; that and the mindset that only you can possibly be right and nobody else is thinking clearly. Yes, the problem is you. Not the imms, not the avatars, but your method of blame-laying criticism. Change your attitude, be more respectful of the people who made, are still making, and who are constantly FIXING the game that you and all the rest of us enjoy. Maybe then people will give you that same sort of respect.
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Verbannon



Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 385

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sierra wrote:
The only bullshit I smell is what's coming from cause the mouth of someone with ZERO experience whatsoever coding for this MUD; claiming that he could do so much better than the people with years of experience in doing so. Newsflash, buddy: no aspect of the code here is as simplified as you think. For example, even if it would take an hour, as you claim, to code twenty or so NPCs, there's still the matter of finding and fixing any bugs in the code of said NPCs, and YES: testing for balance is necessary.
Shame you were so quick to revoke your claim of going into passive silence. Yeah, the whole "I'm the victim" act wasn't going to get you the sympathy you were aiming for. Yes, your opinion matters. Everyone's opinion matters here. The issue is that your way of thinking is constantly in opposition to the real scope of things; that and the mindset that only you can possibly be right and nobody else is thinking clearly. Yes, the problem is you. Not the imms, not the avatars, but your method of blame-laying criticism. Change your attitude, be more respectful of the people who made, are still making, and who are constantly FIXING the game that you and all the rest of us enjoy. Maybe then people will give you that same sort of respect.


I said I could write out by hand 20 stat blocks. Not code. And Avatars dont code unless Im mistaken. They have to use some kind of interface that lets them input the values and then that interface translates their input into code. And it should not be harder than writing out a statblock by hand.

But naybe Im wrong, maybe you are right. Who knows. Maybe Im right, maybe you are wrong. Who knows. Certainly not me. So believe what you will about me or anything. In fact I forfeit you are right I am wrong.

ac·qui·esce
ˌakwēˈes/Submit
verb
accept something reluctantly but without protest.
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PM me in the forum here when you want me on to RP or dungeon dive. The forum will automatically notify me by e-mail. Then my e-mail will send me a text message. Then I will get on likely within minutes.
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Octothorpe
Immortal


Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 359
Location: below the 9 on your phone

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm locking this thread since it has derailed so bad, like that train in Australia that derailed due to all the millipedes on the track.
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